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Sundance leather replica??
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so they say...but, this is probably borderline going too far. Even using the same name? That sounds sketchy to me. This is a Houston based B&Y dealer btw, unbeknownst to me until today; they do NOT sell any H&M products.
The attached photo is of "their" Sundance & the only pic outta of several detailed closeups of their sofa(taken in someone's actual home,) I was able to download. Thus, my inc the link...for those of you interested in seeing a fully rendered replica of a H&M sofa
http://www.leathershoppes.com/american-heritage-sundance-elegant-leather-sofa.html[/url]
Re: Sundance leather replica??
It's not unusual for companies to copy Hancock and Moore designs, however they are pretty bold using the same name for the product and I think they have pulled two to four photos off the H&M website. Good find, I have forwarded that to upper management at H&M. Thank you.
Re: Sundance leather replica??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
It's not unusual for companies to copy Hancock and Moore designs, however they are pretty bold using the same name for the product and I think they have pulled two to four photos off the H&M website. Good find, I have forwarded that to upper management at H&M. Thank you.
I thought the stock photo was noticeably better than the other pictures they posted of their version in the house setting. Yes, I'd of let H&M know as well, since it's pretty much a blatant attempt at an exact copy! Even going so far as using the same name! That's def some intellectual property no-go zone!!
Re: Sundance leather replica??
Duane,
I don't know how long you perused their site, but there's a Sundance chair, recliner, sectional & ottoman as well. All under their "private label" American Heritage. If H&M is concerned,(as I'd think they would be if any retailer, let alone a discount retailer was passing of H&M's photos as their own,) I also saw several other "American Heritage" pieces that closely resembled H&M's better known, popular pieces.
Re: Sundance leather replica??
I have already heard back from H&M Senior Management and they were not aware this was happening or had seen this website. Yes, three or four of those photos were pulled off the H&M website. What will happen next is anyone's guess. however I doubt it will be ignored.
This is pretty common in the trade to 'knock-off' a competitor's designs and try to grab a portion of market share from retail consumers trying to save a few dollars. The thought being if you make it look similar, it will be. As we know from fake Rolex's and imposter Louis Vuitton handbags, the knock-off never measures up to the original. But the rub here with Leather Shoppe's copy is that it's only about 12% less money than the original Hancock and Moore (assuming promotional hide vs promotional hide). Why would anyone buy a fake when they can have the real deal for not much more cash?
The most imitated Hancock and Moore item is the perennially top-selling Austin sofa and chair series. H&M came out with that design in 1981, thirty-five years ago, and it's still their # 1 seller so everyone and their uncle took a crack at duplicating it and they all missed. Even Bradington Young, whom I also sell. cloned it. However, they don't sit, operate or feel the same and they always get several aspects of the copy wrong. I got so tired of in-store customers asking me about the B-Y copy that I brought their tilt-back chair and ottoman in the store and placed it next to the H&M Tilt Back and Ottoman on my showroom floor and if you come into my store today you will see them next to one another. Now a funny thing happens, the B-Y has a significantly better price point - well over a thousand dollars difference - and no one buys it. I've not sold the first one since I put them side-by-side. And yet I've sold hundreds of the H&M Austin High Back Tilt chair and ottoman. Folks come in and point to the B-Y unit and say 'Great price, that's what I want'. then move over to the more pricey H&M and after a test sit and look at the build construction they all buy the Hancock and Moore. So probably the best way to sell the premier brand is to have a clone next to the original!
It costs a lot of money to design a new piece of upholstery. H&M pays professional designers all over the USA quite a bit to come up with new designs, and then once they build a prototype, Jimmy Moore gets back in the workshop and starts tweaking the design until they get it to their standards of comfort and proportion and able to go through a 36" doorway. In between Markets in April and October you will see the dumpsters at H&M full of cast off prototypes as they work through each design to get it just right, often five to six generations of a new model are done prior to introduction. So it's easier for wanna-be competitors to simply go out and buy a unit at retail, bring it back and copy it through disassembly, and it only cost them one sofa at retail price for a successful pattern. But the thing is, they never get it right, because what H&M does in builds is too hard for them to duplicate inch for inch. They don't have the talent or the capability to do so, and so they take shortcuts - end result is the copy is never even close to the original.
What H&M's main concern will be with the Leather Shoppe's clone is the photo usage and name usage. They won't want consumers getting confused into thinking this is a genuine Hancock and Moore Sundance Sofa. Because what happens is someone buys this unit from Leather Shoppes, has a problem with it five years or so down the road and they go to seek out the manufacturer for remedy. They think they have a H&M Sundance and they don't. Then they trash the brand on social media and the like because it 'fell apart' and was 'junk'. Or they call H&M for cushion core replacement and find out it's not the real deal and the cores don't fit. Just a nightmare waiting to happen. And of course, for Leather Shoppes the fallout is also that anyone that reads this thread - and a lot of people do - it destroys their credibility as a trustworthy and honest business. Foolish of them to do that!
Re: Sundance leather replica??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
I have already heard back from H&M Senior Management and they were not aware this was happening or had seen this website. Yes, three or four of those photos were pulled off the H&M website. What will happen next is anyone's guess. however I doubt it will be ignored.
This is pretty common in the trade to 'knock-off' a competitor's designs and try to grab a portion of market share from retail consumers trying to save a few dollars. The thought being if you make it look similar, it will be. As we know from fake Rolex's and imposter Louis Vuitton handbags, the knock-off never measures up to the original. But the rub here with Leather Shoppe's copy is that it's only about 12% less money than the original Hancock and Moore (assuming promotional hide vs promotional hide). Why would anyone buy a fake when they can have the real deal for not much more cash?
The most imitated Hancock and Moore item is the perennially top-selling Austin sofa and chair series. H&M came out with that design in 1981, thirty-five years ago, and it's still their # 1 seller so everyone and their uncle took a crack at duplicating it and they all missed. Even Bradington Young, whom I also sell. cloned it. However, they don't sit, operate or feel the same and they always get several aspects of the copy wrong. I got so tired of in-store customers asking me about the B-Y copy that I brought their tilt-back chair and ottoman in the store and placed it next to the H&M Tilt Back and Ottoman on my showroom floor and if you come into my store today you will see them next to one another. Now a funny thing happens, the B-Y has a significantly better price point - well over a thousand dollars difference - and no one buys it. I've not sold the first one since I put them side-by-side. And yet I've sold hundreds of the H&M Austin High Back Tilt chair and ottoman. Folks come in and point to the B-Y unit and say 'Great price, that's what I want'. then move over to the more pricey H&M and after a test sit and look at the build construction they all buy the Hancock and Moore. So probably the best way to sell the premier brand is to have a clone next to the original!
It costs a lot of money to design a new piece of upholstery. H&M pays professional designers all over the USA quite a bit to come up with new designs, and then once they build a prototype, Jimmy Moore gets back in the workshop and starts tweaking the design until they get it to their standards of comfort and proportion and able to go through a 36" doorway. In between Markets in April and October you will see the dumpsters at H&M full of cast off prototypes as they work through each design to get it just right, often five to six generations of a new model are done prior to introduction. So it's easier for wanna-be competitors to simply go out and buy a unit at retail, bring it back and copy it through disassembly, and it only cost them one sofa at retail price for a successful pattern. But the thing is, they never get it right, because what H&M does in builds is too hard for them to duplicate inch for inch. They don't have the talent or the capability to do so, and so they take shortcuts - end result is the copy is never even close to the original.
What H&M's main concern will be with the Leather Shoppe's clone is the photo usage and name usage. They won't want consumers getting confused into thinking this is a genuine Hancock and Moore Sundance Sofa. Because what happens is someone buys this unit from Leather Shoppes, has a problem with it five years or so down the road and they go to seek out the manufacturer for remedy. They think they have a H&M Sundance and they don't. Then they trash the brand on social media and the like because it 'fell apart' and was 'junk'. Or they call H&M for cushion core replacement and find out it's not the real deal and the cores don't fit. Just a nightmare waiting to happen. And of course, for Leather Shoppes the fallout is also that anyone that reads this thread - and a lot of people do - it destroys their credibility as a trustworthy and honest business. Foolish of them to do that!
Not to mention, their unauthorized use of what I presume are legally protected images. That's a HUGE no-no!
The legally correct way to have gone about what they're doing is to have done it like the other imitation sellers, such as Casco Bay & CoCoCo did with their versions of RH's Lancaster & Maxwell sofas: they're NOT using the same name for their product, nor using any of RH's product photos on their sites, or in the descriptions of their product. They're also NOT sneaking in photos of the original with their own photos. They're simply stating: "this is our version of the XYZ's sofa. XYZ builds their sofa like...& ours is...at a lower price. In no way should our product be considered an XYZ product. We are not affiliated in any way with XYZ company, etc." NONE of that very important language is anywhere in their description.
Leather Shoppes has NOT gone about this very smartly. I'd go so far as to say they're flat out lying to their customer. Blatantly misrepresenting their Sundance as THE known, luxury brand Sundance, thru the unauthorized use of legally protected images & name.
I'm glad H&M is aware & will, at the very least, issue a cease & desist order to Leather Shoppes.
They're 1 of 3-4 B&Y dealers within an hour drive of me. Unfortunately, they're the "power dealer" with the largest stock, inc the 543-94 sofa & 543-25 chair on their floor. I was considering going down there on my next day off to test sit & see the 543-25 in person, but after discovering this last night...it's just left a bad taste in my mouth. Lol, & I'm overly irked by the numerous spelling errors ALL over their website, inc several obvious ones in that "great" B&Y leather description page I linked too(I still think that's an invaluable resource tool for distinguishing between the different B&Y leathers, despite the character of the poster.) But seriously, who doesn't spell check their own website, especially when they're outsourcing the running of it to a commercial website mgmt company?!
Re: Sundance leather replica??
I think I know where they are having this made. About three years ago I was at the High Point Market and went to some of the 'fringe' areas of the Market that are several blocks from center core, where the mediocre and ho-hum brands are located in showrooms. There was a small maker with a showroom that had a H&M Sundance knock-off among other things. I went in and looked at it, and of course was immediately being told "This is just as good as the Hancock and Moore brand at hundreds of dollars less". While he was talking I was looking all over the piece and it has so many flaws and sloppy execution that I started chuckling. Not one to be shy I replied "I'm a dealer for Hancock and Moore and believe me when I tell you that you're pretty far from being 'just as good as them'." And that ended the conversation and I left. If it happens to be that maker they are presenting as their brand, then its a far cry from the original.
This leather market is very broad, with many makers and many retailers all vying for the consumer's dollar. There are good pieces out there, and plenty of bad ones. Ethical dealers and those that are not. I don't know anything about Leather Shoppes other than I don't agree with their 'ratings' and other than that I have no interaction with them or opinion, either good or bad. It seems to me however, they did not use good judgment with this 'Sundance' clone and certainly their webmaster didn't do them any favors pulling down what appears to be photos from the H&M website to use on their site. That's a really good way to trigger legal action and get sued, and I know as a dealer I would not want Century Brands coming after me. It also virtually assures they will never be a dealer for those brands - people have long memories in this industry.
Re: Sundance leather replica??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
I don't know anything about Leather Shoppes other than I don't agree with their 'ratings'
Duane, I would love to see you do your own ratings. As a first time shopper, I did a lot of internet research before coming to this forum. I am really thankful that I did, but I know most people probably wouldn't spend time reading this forum as opposed to a single webpage. That "quality table" that leathershoppes has on their website was the single best resource I had before coming to this forum. Not that I'm saying it's accurate - it's just, it is the only source that presents a lot of comparison information on a single page. Otherwise, it's a bunch of scattered information out there - some outdated, some misleading, some pitched to sell a particular brand, and some just plain wrong. It's hard even to determine whether a single brand is good, never mind how it ranks against others.
I see that quality table getting quoted again and again, because it's honestly the only thing out there for average consumers. Please consider doing one.
Re: Sundance leather replica??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jenny
Duane, I would love to see you do your own ratings. As a first time shopper, I did a lot of internet research before coming to this forum. I am really thankful that I did, but I know most people probably wouldn't spend time reading this forum as opposed to a single webpage. That "quality table" that leathershoppes has on their website was the single best resource I had before coming to this forum. Not that I'm saying it's accurate - it's just, it is the only source that presents a lot of comparison information on a single page. Otherwise, it's a bunch of scattered information out there - some outdated, some misleading, some pitched to sell a particular brand, and some just plain wrong. It's hard even to determine whether a single brand is good, never mind how it ranks against others.
I see that quality table getting quoted again and again, because it's honestly the only thing out there for average consumers. Please consider doing one.
Jenny,
I completely agree. I, too, am familiar with that site's ratings chart. I guess one positive is that maybe it gives just enough information that people then desire even more information.
Without doubt, Duane could produce a ratings system that would run circles around the other. What only Duane knows is exactly how much work it would require. I have no idea! Maybe it's so much second nature that Duane could simply roll it out in no time. Maybe not. It would be a mighty fine tool, though.
TXCajun
Re: Sundance leather replica??
Oh no. The problem is I don't have the knowledge base to properly do that rating (and neither does Leather Shoppes). To do that correctly, and with integrity, would mean a half-day visit to each of those factories where they produce the pieces to actually see how they are building them, or to buy a piece from each maker and take it apart at my store, and I can't afford to do that. I need to put hands-on it, and look with my own two eyes.
Two problems however.
First, is who that kind of time to devote to that? It would take a month to do it right and realistically cost about $ 15,000 in travel and lost income to do a mega factory tour circuit just in the Carolinas.
Second is gaining access to the factories on brands I don't sell. Most companies don't take kindly to that.
Now, I could do what they have done and just shoot from the hip and speculate based on an opinion, but that's not my style. To make something that folks can rely on requires research and facts. I prefer to be better grounded, which is why I have never done an industry-comparison list for the consumer. I can compare and contrast the brands that I sell, that's easy, but not wide enough a spectrum to create a viable list of makers.
I will however, be glad to take your donations of furniture from other makers here at my store and tear them down back by the dumpster, and report back. They need be identifiable and less than 5 years old!
Re: Sundance leather replica??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
Oh no. The problem is I don't have the knowledge base to properly do that rating (and neither does Leather Shoppes). To do that correctly, and with integrity, would mean a half-day visit to each of those factories where they produce the pieces to actually see how they are building them, or to buy a piece from each maker and take it apart at my store, and I can't afford to do that. I need to put hands-on it, and look with my own two eyes.
Two problems however.
First, is who that kind of time to devote to that? It would take a month to do it right and realistically cost about $ 15,000 in travel and lost income to do a mega factory tour circuit just in the Carolinas.
Second is gaining access to the factories on brands I don't sell. Most companies don't take kindly to that.
Now, I could do what they have done and just shoot from the hip and speculate based on an opinion, but that's not my style. To make something that folks can rely on requires research and facts. I prefer to be better grounded, which is why I have never done an industry-comparison list for the consumer. I can compare and contrast the brands that I sell, that's easy, but not wide enough a spectrum to create a viable list of makers.
I will however, be glad to take your donations of furniture from other makers here at my store and tear them down back by the dumpster, and report back. They need be identifiable and less than 5 years old!
Well, Duane, as usual, you clarify that which most of us (meaning, especially me) have no clue!
TXCajun
Re: Sundance leather replica??
This is the type of thing that Consumer Reports does well, and has the budget to buy a piece from each maker and take them apart in their lab. I don't subscribe to them, but those of you that do should contact them and ask them to do a report on leather sofas and mention some of the brands you want to see. Enough of their members ask about it, perhaps they would consider doing it.
Re: Sundance leather replica??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
This is the type of thing that Consumer Reports does well, and has the budget to buy a piece from each maker and take them apart in their lab. I don't subscribe to them, but those of you that do should contact them and ask them to do a report on leather sofas and mention some of the brands you want to see. Enough of their members ask about it, perhaps they would consider doing it.
I don't know if they've ever done as narrowed of a consensus study covering JUST leather furniture, but I'm fairly certain they've done best of furniture studies in the past. The problem with those studies, is they're too broad & cover just about every maker. So, you're still left walking away confused.
Duane's right tho: it never hurts to just ask. If enough of their readers do, they very well be inclined to undergo a benchmarking study of just leather furniture...the worst that can happen, is they say "no."
Re: Sundance leather replica??
Duane,
Any updates from H&M regarding their next steps with Leather Shoppes? Will they issue a cease & desist & that'll be it? Or, is this a bit more serious & involved than simply issuing a sternly written letter?
Re: Sundance leather replica??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
I think I know where they are having this made. About three years ago I was at the High Point Market and went to some of the 'fringe' areas of the Market that are several blocks from center core, where the mediocre and ho-hum brands are located in showrooms. There was a small maker with a showroom that had a H&M Sundance knock-off among other things. I went in and looked at it, and of course was immediately being told "This is just as good as the Hancock and Moore brand at hundreds of dollars less". While he was talking I was looking all over the piece and it has so many flaws and sloppy execution that I started chuckling. Not one to be shy I replied "I'm a dealer for Hancock and Moore and believe me when I tell you that you're pretty far from being 'just as good as them'." And that ended the conversation and I left. If it happens to be that maker they are presenting as their brand, then its a far cry from the original.
This leather market is very broad, with many makers and many retailers all vying for the consumer's dollar. There are good pieces out there, and plenty of bad ones. Ethical dealers and those that are not. I don't know anything about Leather Shoppes other than I don't agree with their 'ratings' and other than that I have no interaction with them or opinion, either good or bad. It seems to me however, they did not use good judgment with this 'Sundance' clone and certainly their webmaster didn't do them any favors pulling down what appears to be photos from the H&M website to use on their site. That's a really good way to trigger legal action and get sued, and I know as a dealer I would not want Century Brands coming after me. It also virtually assures they will never be a dealer for those brands - people have long memories in this industry.
I'm curious: why'd you chuckle & ONLY say what you did? Why didn't you point out the areas that were way off? As knowledgeable as you are about H&M, I'd think the temptation to point out their flaws would've been very high...however, sometimes NOT telling a shady seller how they could better their product can be just as satisfying :)
I'm sure that maker was dying to know what he could do to "fix" his Sundance so it'd be closer to what he's attempting at passing off as the original! He'd have left market, gone back to the factory to tweak his Sundance so that by next market he'd be in a more secure standing.
Re: Sundance leather replica??
I won't get involved in this beyond notifying H&M of your findings, what will probably happen is that will just disappear from that web site in the not too distant future.
On your other point, why would I want to help someone doing a knock-off of a brand I support and sell to correct their piece? No reason to....
Re: Sundance leather replica??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
I won't get involved in this beyond notifying H&M of your findings, what will probably happen is that will just disappear from that web site in the not too distant future.
On your other point, why would I want to help someone doing a knock-off of a brand I support and sell to correct their piece? No reason to....
Exactly! Lol, I kinda answered my own question on that one
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Re: Sundance leather replica??
Duane, et all: just wanted to keep everyone up to date that as of just a few minutes ago Leather Shoppes's "Sundance" series is still posted on their site with the same pictures as before...
Re: Sundance leather replica??
H&M could easily have it removed by sending a DMCA takedown notice to their website host. I am assuming that the photos belong to H&M, either because they were taken by an employee or by a professional photographer under a work-for-hire contract. It sounds weird but if the goal is to have it taken off the web, using the copyrights attached to the photos would be the fastest and cheapest way by far.
The great thing about the DMCA is that you don't have to hire a lawyer or go to court, any average person can do their own request off an online template so long as they are the copyright owner. Many ISP and hosts have their own form you can fill out
Re: Sundance leather replica??
Within the Leather Shoppe's web site, under the "American Heritage" Brand nearly all their Sofas and Chairs are direct copies of Hancock and Moore designs. Perhaps the industry has this phenomena often and the originating manufacturers of the designs just don't want to spend their time and money in court. Traditional H&M customers aren't exactly the type to be happy with a copy product.
Re: Sundance leather replica??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wisejd
Within the Leather Shoppe's web site, under the "American Heritage" Brand nearly all their Sofas and Chairs are direct copies of Hancock and Moore designs. Perhaps the industry has this phenomena often and the originating manufacturers of the designs just don't want to spend their time and money in court. Traditional H&M customers aren't exactly the type to be happy with a copy product.
I've always loved the classic mid century modern pieces & a lot, if not ALL of those are copied to various degrees of the originals. If you look at some of the better versions of the replicas the retailer has almost always put in fine print at the bottom of the item description "This is not a Knoll/Herman Miller/etc product and is in no way affiliated with ..." It's very hard to copyright or patent a furniture design & it makes it easy for anyone out there with the acumen to build a piece of furniture nearly identical to another piece, to go right on ahead & do it.
It's different than a Chanel or Louis Vuitton handbag where anyone knocking those off & putting the name brand labels on them will immediately be set upon by the higher ups at those companies.
What I find so interesting in this particular case, is that Leather Shoppes is not saying anywhere this sofa is akin to the H&M Sundance, yet they're naming theirs the Sundance & using H&M's photos to represent their product. And yet, with their in house label "American Heritage," they're outright copying RH's Maxwell & Lancaster sofas AND saying so in their descriptions & names...so, why the sneakiness with the H&M stuff, but not the RH stuff??
Re: Sundance leather replica??
Its a Buyer-Beware World out there.
