New leather furniture for a novice buyer

Ok Dr. Collie,
I am calling you Dr. because from all the threads that I have read here and elswhere, you seem to know what you are talking about. I consider you the Dr. of furniture and an expert in your field. Which is why I have finally given in and decided to enter into your forum and ask you a bunch of questions.
Hope you are up to it!!
I am completely new to buying leather furniture. My wife and I were convinced by several people to finally replace our old fabric couches/sofas and get leather. Trouble is, we don't know anything about what to look for. I have been doing extensive research, but after reading all the forums, it seems I didn't really learn anything at all. Here is what I thought I wanted.
I wanted a thick, sturdy leather, strong enough to handle my 6' 1" tall and 250 lb. mass of nothing. Top Grain was what I was looking for. Kind of a brown, coffee, light chocolate color. Not too picky on color. I thought it had to be a semi-aniline dyed couch and chairs/recliners, (still up in the air about recliners, tell you why later), 8-way hand tied, kiln-dried hardwood frame, but the leather had to be soft also, but tough enough to handel me and my dog and all my god children and nieces/nephews. It is for our living room, and that is exactly what it is, a living room. We do everything there. (Eat, entertain, watch tv, etc.)
I had researched the manufacturers who most likely would fit that bill, and came up with several. (B&Y, H&M, Leathercraft, classic leather, american leather, those were my top.) Then came Flexsteel, pallister, natuzzi, Sam Moore, and maybe a couple of others I can't recall now.
I had my sights set on H&M, until we actually started shopping around. We are in the southwest area, in far west Texas, near the border of Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. Not too many stores we can to see furniture. My wife is really sticking to her guns about not going to the internet for the furniture, because she wants to sit and feel the furniture, and I really can't blame her.
She now thinks that H&M is too expensive, and is leaning towards Flexsteel and some company called Superb creations, which I really can't find anything on them.
One thing is for sure. I don't want any chinese hands touching any part of my furniture. I don't like anything from China, and if I can help it, will not buy anything from there. So I was going for American made.
but after reading many posts, it seems that I will have a problem with that. I don't mind getting hides from Germany, North Italy, Scandanavia, North America, but I don't want stuff from China, New Zealand, or Australia, or England for that matter.
A sofa we saw at one retailer was an Austin, from the married family, Town and country stuff from H&M, and I really liked it, but I am worried about the leather now. Also, it was selling for $3292, and I thought it was kind of expensive being from the Town and Country selection. Or am I mistaken?
Now I am considering just getting my own chair, (for me) and let her get what she wants for the sofa and other chair/recliner.
I wanted a recliner, but you have stated that the Legget-Platt mechanisme is now being built in china. So there went that. Now I am thinking about getting a nice H&M chair and ottoman for myself.
My wife also mentioned that she sat in a Ekornes recliner and she loved it. I just have a probem with the foam that it is made out of. It seems to me that the company just warrants it for 5 years, and then, too bad. And it is expensive also. What are your feelings about this.
Beware Duane, this is only the beginning. (haha)
I do have sort of a budget to stick with, but I am looking for reliable furniture. She was also convinced about the flexsteel because the salesperson told her that in our dry weather, the Kiln-dried hardwood would split, and that was as bad as getting a natuzzi unit or lane unit. that flexsteel would stand up to any punishment we could give it. He also told her that she should consider Legacy leather, because it is the only company that guarantees their leather for life if anything happens. But all he had was bonded leather, or pigmented "corrected" leather, and I was wanting to stay away from that leather.
Your thoughts would be most appreciated.
Yours in furniture,
Richard
aka Big "R"

I forgot to add that my wife liked the fact the Flexsteel was considerably cheaper than H&M.

"DR" is just my initials, certainly not a Dr.! But this is what the forum is for, to ask questions and get some answers.

OK, lots of questions there....lets start addressing them one at a time.

First off, let me say that generally speaking, the old adage is true in the leather furniture business "You get what you pay for". Building furniture is not rocket science, they all know how to do it right. The key is each company markets to a given segment. Hancock and Moore believes in 'no shortcuts' they use the best of everything and let the price fall where it may. So does Leathercraft. Classic Leather is another good build, but they are not the company they used to be, largely because of poor management choices in marketing, not due to build quality. You can vary the covers to get the price down on these upper tier makers, but the build quality is always the same no matter if the leather is inexpensive Chinese or costly Swiss leather.

Bradington Young does not fall into the high tier, nor is that their target market. They will cost 20 % less on average, and you get 20 % less product. Still, they build a very durable, long-lasting piece.

Flexsteel is third tier, as is Pallister, and Sam Moore. Natuzzi I wouldn't waste my time on. You give up quite a bit in third tier furniture, in exchange for price. I don't carry third tier in my store, I see too many faults at that level that bother me - but I'm known for being a tad picky. "Superb" is a brand I'm not familiar with.

The China Issue: There is a huge, and I mean MASSIVE backlash from folks right now that do not want Chinese furniture. I hear it daily, and I'm with you. I make sure the owners of these companies hear it too, and they have. However, the price to value ratio of Chinese hides cannot be ignored. They offer the best bang for the buck. China does not have a cattle industry, so hides actually originate here in the USA as 'crusts' and are shipped to China for tanning, and come back as a finished product. The quality of the leather from the top-of-the-line tanneries is excellent, and if you decide you really want an top flight European hide, you'll pay quite a bit more.

Leggett and Platt which makes the best mechanisms has two US production facilities and two in China. You may get a mechanism made in the USA or one from China, no way to tell or specify. Springs for the deck and other materials can come from China, no matter who the maker. Its difficult for me to know the source of every component in the piece, but you can assume that there will likely be parts from China in most everything out there.

As to the price of $ 3,292 for the Austin Sofa in Married Cover, was that the # 8134NB model? If so, thats an easy price to beat. I will no longer quote prices in the forum as the specific request of H&M, but you can PM me if you would like a quote.

I can't address concerns on Ekorne's warranty, and don't know the brand well. Lots of folks seem to like what they build, however.

I find the comment that the Flexsteel sales droid told your wife to be hilarious. He's 180 degrees from being accurate! Proper kiln-dried wood is exactly what you want for the best construction. Kiln-drying to a specific moisture content means stability in construction, and less change of warpage and shrinkage during the build process (once things are all tied together, they move very little). Flexsteel uses all engineered plywood in their pieces (as do other makers), and its less expensive (surprise!) as well as being superior to solid wood in certain areas of a frame. Even Hancock and Moore uses it for certain parts of a piece, but the problem building an entire frame out of it is that it 'racks', unlike solid hardwood. Easy to see this for yourself, next time you go to the store, pick up a Flexsteel sofa from just one corner and lift it up. Watch how far you can lift it before the other front leg begins to come up, I'm betting you can get three inches, maybe four on the lifted corner before the rest of the front comes up. Now to go a Hancock and Moore sofa build of solid wood and do the same thing, you'll get 1/2" to 3/4" and inch before the other front leg comes up. That twist in the frame is from the plywood construction and we call it 'racking'. Makes it difficult on reclining sofas and sectionals to get good alignments because floors are rarely even. When I was a Flexsteel dealer for a short time, we always took lots of wooden door shims on delivery with us so we could adjust for the racking on the Flexsteel items.

Here is Legacy leather's guarantee:

"Our lifetime warranty covers the frame, the padding, the cushions and even the leather itself against color transfer, against finish cracking and peeling."

Color transfer? I should hope the dye stays on! Finish cracking and peeling? No leather should do that, its a sign of a poorly applied topcoat. The guarantee doesn't apply to wear-through I see, and that's what I would be looking for if I wanted a guarantee worth something.

Bonded Leather. That's just nasty. Its not even real leather, in fact the only country in the WORLD that its allowed to be called 'leather' is the USA. Every other country forbids it to be marketed as "leather'. What bonded leather really is made of is scrap leather, and its always from China. When companies like H&M mark and cut leather, there are scraps, from which they make leather sample swatches and the like, but they have so much they collect the scrap in drums. When they collect enough scrap, its sold by the ton and put in a container for China. There the scraps of every color are chemically melted into a slurry, and the melting process destroys the cellulose bonds that give leather its strength. The slurry is them applied to a polypropylene sheet, an artificial grain is stamped into it, its painted, and comes to a supplier like a bolt of fabric, not a hide. Its totally fake leather, and doesn't have the strength of natural leather. I won't sell it, and when any of my manufacturers send samples of it they go right in the trash can - and I will not ever sell it, even on request.

Pigmented leather, also called Finished or Corrected leather. That's going to be about half the leathers on the market, and the most durable ones. You really can't rule that out, because you want to use and bring food and meatballs to the pieces, and only this class of leather has that kind of topcoat. Your other choices are pure aniline hides, but now you've kicked yourself up several notches in price and are giving up some protection.

Want to know the perfect leather? H&M's ANTELOPE series. A German hide that is fully protected, has a soft matte finish, is luxurious feeling and looks like a million bucks. Just today I was discussing 'the perfect leather' in the line with my H&M rep in the store and we both agreed this is the one. It hits all the markers. However its a European hide and a Grade 3 leather, so you have to pay to get in this class of hide. Every customer who has ever ordered Antelope has been very happy with it, but it could be a budget buster.

! Whew ! Think I got most the questions..... next round!

Hi Duane,
You just never cease to amaze me. Thank you for the info. Very helpful as usual. Ok, second round.
So if I understand correctly, if I wanted, let's say the #1044 sadler or the #7017 Miller recliner, I would not have a choice on where the mechanism would be made from? It could be chinese or USA made? And that is consistent with all Manufacturers?
What is a gimp and a bustle? I saw it on the H&M website on some chairs and sofas.
In your opinion, which is a better product--H&M or Leathercraft and who has the best leather? Which on is less expensive?
So you are saying that Kiln-dried Hardwood is just fine in our environment? I should have no problems then with sticking with Kiln-dried hardwood?
I thought the B&Y had some leathers coming from china? Maybe I was thinking about somebody else.
I read your info about buying furniture through the internet and how much of a headache it could be. It is scarey. I just don't trust these damn retailers here to give me a fair price on anything. For instance, I called the retailer today who had the H&M Austin sofa. It is #8134NB. It is a Document leather, Grade 2, and was told it retailed for $4479, but they discount it to $3225. So is that a fair price? Given that it is a Document leather, is that from china? And if it is, how can that be a fair price?
Is grade 2 a good leather. Because as I was doing my research, all I read about was full aniline, semi-aniline, pigmented "corrected" , and bonded or embossed leather and split leather. How does Grade 2 or Grade 3 translate to these?
For instance, on the Antelope leather from Germany, you stated it is a Grade 3 leather, fully protected. So that has to be better than Grade 2 right? So how does that translate to the above names? (On the Antelope, I can eat my meatballs and spagetti right)? And can my dog lie with me on a sofa with antelope leather?
Last question for today Duane,
Am I able to receive swatches of the leather I am interested in from H&M, so I can physically look and touch the different leathers available since I probably won't be able to in the store?
Again Duane, Thank you very much. You are turning out to be a life savor. And I am not talking about the candy either.
Regards,
Big "R"

Ready for Round 2 ! Good questions, all.

Let me temper this by saying all my answers are based on what I currently know from a variety of sources, and some of this is speculation, some figuring things out by reading between the lines, and some direct from people in high places, but I may find out a month from now my information is incorrect, and reserve the right to modify or address an issue with an update down the road!

On the H&M recliner mechanisms, you cannot specify origin for your piece. One batch may come from a USA plant, another from a Chinese plant. As far as Leggitt and Platt is concerned, their mechanisms are equal in quality and durability and strength regardless of country of manufacture. From L&P's VP on my inquiry (this was a few months ago):

Mr. Collie

‘Leggett has four manufacturing sites for Furniture Hardware, including Motion products. Two locations are in the US (Saltillo, MS and Leitchfield, KY). Two are in China (Jiaxing and Taizhou). All products produced in all facilities are US engineered and the specifications are the same, regardless of where they are produced. When new products are developed, they are normally launched here first so that we can provide US manufacturers and retailers the opportunity to differentiate from existing, in-line product.

You and your customers can tell where the mechanisms are manufactured by looking at the label on the side of the mechanism. All should be labeled with the Seal of Assurance, indicating it has been made in a Leggett facility to exacting specifications, and another label which will indicate which of the four previously mentioned facilities that particular mechanism was manufactured at.’

We want to continue provide a global brand that retailers and consumers recognize and trust. Let me know should need more information.

Sincerely,
Richard L. Weeks
Division Vice President
Eastern U.S. Region
Home Furniture Components
Leggett & Platt, Inc

A Bustle is simply an attached pillow. The Austin series you are looking at has two bustles in the back (i.e., two pillows attached) to the chair back.

Gimp is a piece of leather trim at the base of a ottoman, sofa or chair. Its purely decorative but adds a nice look. The McNary sofa in the Photo Resources section has gimp added to it.

H&M and Leathercraft are equal products in my opinion. However, H&M has many more choices in motion furniture than Leathercraft. Pricing is similar.

Absolutely on kiln-dried lumber. That's a must. Making furniture with un-dried or air-dried lumber can be a disaster.

B&Y will tell me if I call "We have no leathers from China". However, my inside sources in the trade tell me nearly half their leather supply comes from China. You can pick which story you like, my inside source is whom I'm going with. One has to learn how to sort through the information and decide based on experience and knowledge. Its very trendy right now to say "We have no leathers from China" but the truth of the matter is if you want to buy a high-quality piece and keep the price down, you have no options but Chinese hides (with the occasional exception of Hancock and Moore's "Columbia" series which I'm told comes from Argentina).

Fair price on the # 8134NB in Document Chestnut, right? That's the married cover leather out of China. At $ 3,225 I can tell you that you can buy that sofa from me, pay for the shipping/home delivery, and have enough money left over to take your wife out to dinner at a decent restaurant every weekend for the rest of the year. Hancock & Moore has asked me to not post my selling prices in a public forum, so I shall now, but you can Private Message me (PM) for a quote if you like.

Grade(s) of leather are not quality grades. They are PRICING grades. That's commonly confused, you're not the first to think that. That means that the GR3 Antelope is not necessarily a superior leather to a GR2 hide that is similar, but its more expensive. It comes out of Germany, and automatically we know that the Euro is strong against the dollar, whereas the Chinese Yuan is tied to the US dollar directly, so right there that alone can account for a price grade jump, all other things being equal. And yes, you can meatball your Antelope series hide and have pooch up there with you, and it can take the torque as well as any other Serviceability 2 leather.

Yes, I can send up to a dozen leather swatches to you at no charge and no need to return them. Just pick out what you would like and PM your name / address and list of hides you would like to see.

I know you're concerned about Chinese hides from various makers, so let me fill you in what is happening on these leathers and this is probably the best information in the industry....

The world is international, we all know that. The tannery business is a vile and nasty industry. Pollutions levels are high, there is lots of water used in the process, and active carcinogens are used in the tanning agents (more hazardous to the worker than the consumer). That's any tannery, anywhere. Boston MA used to be the leather tanning capital of the world until people began noticing how polluted their rivers were in the 1900's and it can be argued that was the beginning of the ecological movement and the reason we have the EPA. So we know tanneries are nasty business, therefore they are typically located in countries that will tolerate that industry (all major US tanneries were closed down in 2008 by OSHA and the EPA), and you have to have workers that are willing to labor in that environment. China is a natural for that, with loose environmental controls and cheap labor. So many leather companies (especially the Italians) set up satellite tanneries in China and they may have some of their leather coming from Italy and some from China in a given batch, much like the recliner mechanisms. The thing is, the Chinese operations are more consistent in their leathers, particularly in hand-rubbed hides (such as H&M's Kipling Whiskey), which are labor intensive. There a lot of variance in hand-rubbed European leathers.

Like most things there are cruddy Chinese tanneries, and very good ones. Companies like H&M only deal with the top-of-the-line Chinese tannery, which is located out in farmland country near Wuhan, China. Since China does not have a cattle industry, the hide 'crusts' mostly come from the USA, are shipped there for the tanning process, and return to the USA are finished leather.

All the companies are buying some form of Chinese leather. I can take H&M's Document series and ID it in Bradington Young and Leathercraft both, just by knowing the touch and feel (and it has different names in each company).

Here's the bottom line. If you don't want a Chinese leather you're mostly going to be in Grade 3 and Grade 4 price levels, that the Euro stuff. And the Euro stuff is nice, but a GR 3 leather will add 50 % or so to the price of that 8134 you are looking at in Document. Like the saying goes, "You pays your money and you takes your choice!"

Good Morning Duane,
It's your "pain in the butt" novice buyer again.
Thank you for your response.
I guess I have some hard thinking to do and more research. But I am getting closer I believe. That's a big relief for you, huh Duane?
Ok, here we go.
So Grades of leather are highly dependent on where they are tanned and being that Grades 3 and 4 are from Europe, they are more expensive. Except maybe in a couple of instances. Right?
Document leather coming from china is Grade 2 because of that fact.
Ok, so let's say that I cannot afford a grade 3 or 4, I have to bite the bullet and accept a grade 1 or 2. Which are the best leathers in grade 1 and 2 that are full top grain leathers, semi-aniline, and which are from china, and which are not?
I understand that semi-aniline is better than pigmented leather. That I should stay away from pigmented leather. Is the Austin 8134NB a semi-aniline leather?
Thank you again,
Big "R"

No worries, the forum is all about asking questions, and I'll be glad to answer to the best of my ability.

Grades of leather are PRICING grades only. I think you still may be confusing them with quality or location. It's what the furniture maker has to pay the wholesaler for that leather and really has nothing to do with country of origin. However most Euro hides are going to be more expensive, so the bulk will fall into GR3 and GR4. That's the norm, not the rule. Weston in H&M is a delightful leather that is from Germany and is a GR2, for example - but is not often ordered.

I don't have a list of hides that show country of origin, that information is generally tightly held and not available, sorry. In H&M, I can tell you that Document, Cavalier, Rancho, Caress, and some of the Kipling is from China and there may be more I don't know about. Of those hides, all are Pigmented, or Finished leathers. The Kipling is a semi-aniline.

Full Top Grain means 'uncorrected'. All finished leathers will be corrected, so that's a given. To get into good, Full Top Grain hides is going to push you into higher classes (for the most part) and your resistance to oily and acidic spills is diminished (as is sunlight fade). 8134NB is programmed in either Document or Cavalier, both are Finished leathers.

You should buy your leather cover based on the following (in order of preference), and not be as concerned on country of origin, at least that's my recommendation:

1) Budget is first. Whats affordable? In H&M product, the items in Town and Country can't be beat on price.

2) Feel and Texture. Often called the 'hand' of the leather.

3) Durability rating for your lifestyle. The top leathers don't play well with meatballs.

4) Color.

From your posts so far, the German Antelope series is perfect for you, it meets all the criteria except budget. If we are looking to save money, then buy the Town and Country Married Cover hides, they will give you good service duty.

Duane,
That sounds logical to me.
I received your PM, and I tried to respond, but an error message keeps coming up. Don't know if you received the response or not.
Let me know if you didn't.
Talk to you in a while. Have to go to a meeting.
Later,
"R"

hi Duane,
Is pigmented leather (finished leather) a split leather? I am assuming it is not. I don't want a split leather because I understand it tends to crack and break.
I am really leaning towards an Anelope leather chair for me. (MY CHAIR). (lol)
Convincing my better half wiill be the battle.
I am leaving early from work today to interview for a second job. (I am going to need it if I am going to get this furniture). Will get back to you next week. Have a great weekend.
Big "R"
p.s. I am narrowing down my colors and leathers. Thanks for all your help.

Oh no, pigmented (also known as Finished or Corrected or Painted) is not from the splits. A hide is thick, and is literally split into upper and lower hides. The upper hide becomes the Top Grain, the lower hide is the split.

Splits can never be finished correctly, they never have a good feel and are not as strong. So splits become suedes, and industrial leather products.

Finished leather is from the top grain.

When top grain hides arrive at a tannery as 'crusts', they are examined and graded. Once that need sanding are destined to become finished leathers. They are heavily sanded, which destroys the natural grain pattern and removed all imperfections. When the tanning process is complete, the grain is embossed back into the leather, and color and topcoat applied using a painting process, which is why it gets all those different names (Finished, Pigmented, Painted, Corrected). All the same thing. So you will see a very smooth, very even, very durable finish that usually has some sheen to it and repels most everything, just like the paint job on your car.

Aniline leathers are the best. Only 2 % of hides worldwide are good enough to be pure aniline. They are not sanded, and dipped in a color vat, rather than sprayed with a pigment. This is also why aniline hides vary in color so much, the dye is taking on the characteristics of that individual hide and unlike paint, the coloring will be different on one steer skin to another. Anilines have all the natural grain, fat wrinkles, bug bites, healed scars and urine stains left on the leather, and you can see them all on the finished piece. Anilines will fade in direct sunlight, and absorb some oily and acid spills. But there is nothing like a pure aniline leather for the ultimate in luxury leather furniture. In the trade we call it 'real leather'

Semi-Anilines are a hybrid of the two. Lightly sanded and corrected, they will be dipped for color and sprayed with a topcoat and sometimes very light pigment.

Glad to help!

Hi Duane,
In your opinion, which would probably be better for my lifestyle. Pigmented or Semi-aniline?
And the Antelope leather, is it semi-aniline or pigmented?
Thanks,
Big "R"

You would be OK, with either I think. If you want 'bulletproof' go Finished (pigmented), though the Semi-Aniline will give you 90 % of that protection level.

Antelope is a Finished leather, but a very high-end one.

Thank you sir.
Get back to you soon.

Hi Duane,
It's me again.
have you ever heard of Spectra Home? Supposed to be a manufacturer of Lane, Lazyboy, Berhardt, etc. Went on its own and opened business about 5 yrs ago? Just wondering because the wife went shopping to the mall this past weekend with her friends. They stopped in at Dillard's and found a leather sofa from Spectra Home that she thought was very nice. According to the salesperson, it had 8-way hand tied suspension, Top grain leather all the way around, Grade "B"?, what ever that means, (finished, semi-aniline)? She said it was very sturdy. the salesperson told her it was construced of hardwood and would last a very, very long time. The thing that bothers me is that I cannot find anything on the internet about Spectra Home. The whole set, (sofa, loveseat, chair) were selling for about $3000, which I said to her, no f___ing way it is real leather, or constructing frame from Kiln-dried hardwood. She said that the salesperson was very adament about the construction and leather being top of the line, but that since it is a newer company, it wanted to make a good impression and get into the market by offering its furniture below what other top manufacturers are selling at.
Sounds fishy to me. What do you think?
I feel I am getting close now. Thanks for all your help Duane. You are a life-saver.
I will be PMing you for those swatches soon.
Regards,
Big "R"

OH, forgot to mention.
Got sort of freaked out on the new look for the forum.
Later,

Dear Big "R",
Is this your Dillard Spectra Home grouping?
Spectra Home "Cheshire" Leather Sofa SAVE $200!
This brown leather sofa with shaped roll arms and pedestal feet offers the comfort and durability of 8-way hand-tied seating construction. 88x41x35". Orig. $1199.00, now $999.00.

Also available:
Loveseat, 67x41x35", orig. $1099.00, now $899.00.
Chair, 47x41x35", orig. $799.00, now $699.00.
Ottoman, 25x21x18", orig. $300.00, now $250.00.

Also, I couldn't get the link to work so pasted in the info from the Google website. Bottom Line: Made in China.

Upholstery source Spectra Home debuts. Launched at spring HP Market
Joan Gunin -- Furniture Today, July 31, 2007

AT THE MARKET -- Three industry veterans have teamed up to create Spectra Home, an upholstery sales, marketing and distribution company focused on providing “fashion at a price” from China.
Here for its first Las Vegas Market, the leather and fabric upholstery provider is showing in the World Market Center, B-710. The company was launched at the spring High Point Market.

Spectra was created by Michael Nicotera, a merchandising veteran who has worked at Macy’s and other retailers, and former Shermag executives Fred Fahrbach, who handled sales for metro New York, and Jerry Zelnicker, who was vice president of sales and president of Shermag’s import division.

Spectra is headquartered in Hollywood, Fla.

Nicotera described the company’s design direction as “left of center transitional. It gravitates toward retro, modern and lighter contemporary.”

“Our philosophy is to give fashion at a price with better construction (eight-way hand-tied seating), foam-encased frames and loose cushions,” he said.

“Instead of trying to take out of the furniture and make it cheaper, now, since prices are going up in China, we’ve decided to give great value on upper-moderate to lower high-end furniture. It’s constructed well and it’s comfortable and long-lasting,” Nicotera said.

Manufactured in central China near Shanghai, the seating assortment for Las Vegas features 20 leather and five fabric sofas, plus sofa-sleepers and a new accent chair assortment. Retail pricing on leather sofas targets $1,299 but ranges from $999 to $1,499; fabric sofas span $799 to $999. “Our designs can be interpreted from fabric to leather and vice versa,” Nicotera said. “It’s the idea of making sofas covered in leather, and not leather sofas.”

Collection highlights include the Studio Series, featuring a 78-inch queen-size sofa-sleeper with innerspring mattress in five styles. Also, scaled-down 48- to 54-inch-wide sofas, with twin-mattress, are being offered for urban environments.

The 12-piece accent chair program includes one frame with leather on the outside and fabric on the inside. Ottomans are offered with some club chairs.

Spectra offers a combination of container-direct shipping, with limited U.S. warehousing on its sleeper program, Nicotera said. Custom options are available.

Good find, Julie. Shermag is a furniture importer carried by Walmart & Target et al. 'Fashion at a price', nice line. The real price is probably shocking when you calculate cost over lifespan. Corners have to be cut somewhere to make a sofa for $999, even covered in fabric. Unfortunately in most department stores where these are sold there is plenty of misinformation as well as unscrupulous salespeople that will "lie to make you buy".

Never heard of that company, but Juliepooch has dug 'em out. Strong work. Looks like just another Chinese made leather line (one of literally thousands).

Sounds like you had a REALLY good salesman at that store in the mall ... LOL. If you decide to buy from him, maybe ask for his home phone number so when it all folds up in five years you can call him up to discuss....

New forum format is a bit funky, not sure I'm used to it much either! Aaron and I will tweak this place up as we have time. I think its pretty hacker-proof now, and that was the goal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drcollie

No worries, the forum is all about asking questions, and I'll be glad to answer to the best of my ability.

Grades of leather are PRICING grades only. I think you still may be confusing them with quality or location. It's what the furniture maker has to pay the wholesaler for that leather and really has nothing to do with country of origin. However most Euro hides are going to be more expensive, so the bulk will fall into GR3 and GR4. That's the norm, not the rule. Weston in H&M is a delightful leather that is from Germany and is a GR2, for example - but is not often ordered.

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Duane, I ordered Weston Navy for my two chairs and absolutely love it. Why is it so rarely ordered?

Great job you guys.
Juliepooch, talking to my wife during my lunch hour just now, she said it was the mayfield collection. She had looked at the Cheshire, but thought it too slippery and a lot softer sitting than the firm cushions of the mayfield one. You guys rock. I knew it was too good to be true. My wife really has a problem with the pricing of some of the high quality leathers out there from the best manufacturers. She just can't get it trough her head about "you get what you pay for." My sister in law has something to do with that also. She has commented to my wife that not to get such an expensive and high quality furniture because she thinks that my wife will get bored of the furniture and will be stuck with what we find. Me, I don't care. I am getting my own chair. Mine alone. She can get whatever she likes. I am strongly considering getting the antelope, but am going to have a battle getting it. ( As far as home finances is concerned) But I was also considering the Portofino and fenway and maybe even the Austin or Columbia. What do you think?
I also saw this B&Y recliner today during my lunch hour, but the salesperson couldn't really tell me too much. I don't think he knew too much. Not that I know any more than he does. But I was interested in it because it felt pretty nice. It sort of looked like the 4114 that you had posted here before. The only numbers I could get from him was this one: RC214-218. Can you translate that to me and let me know what you think about it? Does it look like a B&Y number? Let me know what you think about the quality of the chair.
Thanks again for all your help,
Big "R"
P.S. I just read that you ride a motorcycle. Me too. I love it. I ride every day. I take it to work, rain or shine, or snow. talk to you later.

Here's at least a yellow light:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jury still out on merits of bonded leather

Some sources are testing a single frame in a bonded leather cover, yet others refuse to touch it.

The new alternative cover is hitting retail floors now, said Alan Naness, president of Design Resources, a distributor of this newly developed amalgam composed of 17% leather mixed with polyurethane.
Naness said he is enjoying “major placements” with his product — dubbed NextLeather — but it needs time to “develop a track record.”

Well aware of detractors, Naness said, “I am not trying to sell it as leather or to mislead anyone. I am not trying to pass it off as anything else. It’s a big product on its own.”

He compared its qualities to that of cotton vs. cotton blend, or solid wood vs. wood veneer.

One unabashed proponent of the new cover is Michael Campbell, president of Leather Italia USA.

“We have received a glowing reaction once I explain the levels of leather characteristics. This is allowing our better and newly introduced programs to shine because they can compare it to (real) leather,” he said.

But most, like Michael Nicotera, co-owner of newly launched Chinese importer Spectra Home, were more tentative. “We’ll use it for effect only (as trim) if we need to (meet a price),” he said.

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I believe Duane explained in another thread that "bonded leather" isn't allowed to be sold as "leather" in any country but the U.S.

Real leather is like steak. NY Strip.

Bonded leather is like an all-beed hot-dog. Various leftover parts all puree'd and formed and held together by casing.

Steak costs more than Hot dogs. Less chemicals in the steak, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigrnm

I am strongly considering getting the antelope, but am going to have a battle getting it. But I was also considering the Portofino and fenway and maybe even the Austin or Columbia. What do you think?
I also saw this B&Y recliner today during my lunch hour, but the salesperson couldn't really tell me too much. I don't think he knew too much. Not that I know any more than he does. But I was interested in it because it felt pretty nice. It sort of looked like the 4114 that you had posted here before. The only numbers I could get from him was this one: RC214-218. Can you translate that to me and let me know what you think about it? Does it look like a B&Y number? Let me know what you think about the quality of the chair.
P.S. I just read that you ride a motorcycle. Me too. I love it. I ride every day. I take it to work, rain or shine, or snow. talk to you later.

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I like the new Portfino leather, pretty nice hide and its a GR2. The brand new leathers from Spring Market are very cool - some real winners in there, I'll try to post up names and photos by end of this week.

RC214-218 is a dealer code of some kind. B-Y uses only 4-digit numbers on their recliners.

Ahh yes! Motorcycles! I've been riding over 40 years now. Current ride is a 2006 BMW R1200GS, and before that a 2004 Harley Road King that I spent WAY too much money customizing. Guess I've owned about (28) bikes over the years, mostly off-road MX bikes. I went for a ride yesterday to my pal John's house, he has two garages full of perfect bikes, from antique rides to modern iron. I think as of yesterday there were (32) bikes in his garage, from Harleys to Moto Guzzis, to BMWs to Ducatis and BSAs/Triumph/Nortons. Nothing mundane, all exotics. I love to go walk around his collection and we take a few out on Sundays..... Here's my pals about halfway to the Mid-Ohio Vintage Races last summer. Big fun.

I'm jealous. Don't get to ride with too many people here. Mostly solo or 2 up.
Later,
Big "R"

by the way,
Good analogy on the steak and hotdog.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drcollie

No worries, the forum is all about asking questions, and I'll be glad to answer to the best of my ability.

Grades of leather are PRICING grades only. I think you still may be confusing them with quality or location. It's what the furniture maker has to pay the wholesaler for that leather and really has nothing to do with country of origin. However most Euro hides are going to be more expensive, so the bulk will fall into GR3 and GR4. That's the norm, not the rule. Weston in H&M is a delightful leather that is from Germany and is a GR2, for example - but is not often ordered.

I don't have a list of hides that show country of origin, that information is generally tightly held and not available, sorry. In H&M, I can tell you that Document, Cavalier, Rancho, Caress, and some of the Kipling is from China and there may be more I don't know about. Of those hides, all are Pigmented, or Finished leathers. The Kipling is a semi-aniline.

Full Top Grain means 'uncorrected'. All finished leathers will be corrected, so that's a given. To get into good, Full Top Grain hides is going to push you into higher classes (for the most part) and your resistance to oily and acidic spills is diminished (as is sunlight fade). 8134NB is programmed in either Document or Cavalier, both are Finished leathers.

You should buy your leather cover based on the following (in order of preference), and not be as concerned on country of origin, at least that's my recommendation:

1) Budget is first. Whats affordable? In H&M product, the items in Town and Country can't be beat on price.

2) Feel and Texture. Often called the 'hand' of the leather.

3) Durability rating for your lifestyle. The top leathers don't play well with meatballs.

4) Color.

From your posts so far, the German Antelope series is perfect for you, it meets all the criteria except budget. If we are looking to save money, then buy the Town and Country Married Cover hides, they will give you good service duty.

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Do the information and product reccommendations on this page still apply in late 2017? If not exactly (no trade stays still), then what relatively high quality, moderate price leather options are available/recommended today? Thank you, very much.

That is still correct information, just some of the leather selections have changed - and will continue to change over the years. Additionally, the new Just in Time Promotion from Hancock and Moore is the most price aggressive, Town and Country second.