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Hi, Duane. My wife and I have been on the hunt for a quality reclining loveseat. But we need one no wider than 61" to allow for traffic flow around it. I have been looking on the H&M site at the Austin line, but can't find any information about the width of the loveseats. One other consideration is that this will be placed in a small home theater, so I would prefer that the height be no more than 36" or so. Would the Austin Incliner or Recliner fit? Or can you recommend something else?
-Dwain
I have a couple of suggestions, Dwain. Leathercraft has nothing in that size, and I'm hesitant to recommend the current crop of Bradington Young dual recliner pieces as their back angles are something you'd want to try out before ordering because of the pitch angle. I find them uncomfortable.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwainw
That leaves Hancock and Moore from what I have available in high quality goods. The Austin w/Dual Recliners should fill the bill. It's 62" wide (might be possible to have it made to 60" or 61" upon request, a bit less padding roll on the arms). Its 38" high and 40" Deep overall. Best of all, its just 1" from the wall when the footrest is out, so it should fit well. Now an Incliner has very little movement in the back, the footrest comes UP, and the back 'slips' into a complimentary position, but does not go all the way back like a conventional recliner. You get the feet/legs up operation, a small shift in the back, but no 'sleeping' position.
The other option worth exploring is the Savoy Theatre ensembles. You can take two manual or power recliners 25" on Savoy and put them together to form a loveseat, and combine with a pair of the 6" straight arms. That means you can get a unit that measures 62" wide and that can possibly modified to 60" overall upon request by taking 1" from each recliner unit. Such as in this photo, but no center arm section and just two recline units. Height on these pieces is 43", however.
http://www.hancockandmoore.com/produ...productid=1702
I can also look into Flexsteel, they make many pieces like that but they're more "Joe Six-Pack" in design and function, lacking the style and grace of the H&M pieces.
http://www.flexsteel.com/home/produc...dSkuId=3344-20
Thanks for your help. I'll be sure to discuss this with my wife tonight. Are the measurements similar for the Full Recliner?
Close! Specs are:
# 9034-20 Full Recliner:
H:39" W: 62" D: 39"
Inside: W: 47.5" D. 19.5"
Distance to Wall for full recline: 5"
8032-20 Incliner:
H:38" W: 62" D: 40"
Inside: W: 49" D. 21"
Distance to Wall for recline: 1"
It sounds like the Full Recliner would be the choice for us. What would the price be for one of these in a Berkshire or Savannah leather? We are located out in the Shenandoah Valley, so we could probably even pick it up from your store. What kind of lead time is H&M running?
By the way, I picked those leathers from the H&M booklet that they mailed me when I inquired with them about the dimensions (they never answered the question, but did mail me some literature). I figure one of these would be a good compromise for our situation. We have two little ones, aged 2 and 4, but they are generally pretty clean with things for their age (we do have a dining room table and use it 8^). And my wife wants a leather as soft as possible. Would you have any other recommendations?
Here's pricing on the Full Recliner, the # 9034-20, pickup price at my store:Quote:
Originally Posted by dwainw
Grade 1 Leather: $ 3,495
Grade 2 Leather: $ 4,088
Grade 3 Leather: $ 4,403
Grade 4 Leather: $ 4,980
The leathers you mention are Grade II's. Berkshire has a very defined 'pebble' to it so it may not be as smooth as you want. Savannah is a mainstream leather than has a good look, and tactile feel. However, I think Kipling, Weston and the new Walker series hides are softer and more luxurious than Savannah in the Grade 2 hides.
In Grade 1, you can look at Columbia. Nice hide for entry grade leather.
Samples I can get to you (need a general color preference) just PM me with name/address and I can send you out a dozen or so.
dwainw, did that booklet H&M sent you contain pictures of all the leather/hides offered by them? If so I'd like to get one as well. How did you get one? Did you call or e-maill them for it?Quote:
Originally Posted by dwainw
Odd I/O,
Unfortunately the H&M booklet does not have pictures of the various leathers. It is the standard brochure that the company sends out if you call or email them for any information. I understand that a picture would not really tell you everything you would want to know about the various leathers, but it seems to be that it would have been quite helpful if they had identified the leathers used on the furniture shown in the book. This particular book has photos of dozens and dozens of fine H&M furniture, complete with item description, but not once does it mention what hide was used to produce that particular piece. Even if they provided identification on a few pieces in the book, it would give some indication of how various leather collections might look on a finished product, something a swatch cannot do.
Duane,
Thanks again for all of your info. I was looking at the Berkshire/Savannah/Verona varieties because the H&M booklet gives them a Servicability rating of 2 rather than 3 like the Kipling and Weston. The description in the booklet of those two servicability levels makes me wonder what kind of 'patina' my toddlers could help a 3 develop. Again, they aren't as messy as a lot of rugrats I've seen, but accidents do happen. Is there much advantage in stepping up to an Auburn or Equestrian?
Finally, at this stage in the game, roughly how long would it take to have one of these made?
H&M does not identify the leathers in the photos on the booklet, master dealer catalog or website because of several reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwainw
* Leathers come and go. The photos may be of a hide no longer offered.
* Lighting is intense on pro-photo shots. It alters the look of the actual leather. Therefore they don't want customers ordering based on the appearance in the photo. They would prefer you visit a dealer and see the swatch yourself in person.
* Free mail out swatches are available. You can say "I like the look of the leather on page ___" and your dealer can cull his master samples to find the hides that look like that photo, then have them sent to you. I do that all the time.
* Leather swatches to not photograph well. Its can be very unpleasant to order off a swatch photograph.
As to 2 vs 3 serviceability, that's ground I cover frequently on other posts here on the forum, and at the end of the day it comes down to what YOU (and your wife) can tolerate. If you are very particular by nature, then a small stain on your leather might bother you. But if you're laid back, then probably not. I have a good customer in Maryland that has a real brood....six rowdy boys, and a girl. Seven kids in all. He only buys Serviceability 3 hides that are pure anilines and loves the way they look after they're 'broken in' as he tells me. "Like a baseball glove that's played a few games" he tells me. He would never buy a finished hide piece. You have to get what works for you.
Production times are ranging from 4 weeks to 16 weeks. Depends on if the hide is in stock at H&M in the colorway you like. A good average I'm seeing is 6 to 7 weeks for 80% of the product line right now. H&M closes for 1 week vacation on Dec 19th, and then a few days at New Years as well, so that's going to add a little time to production right now as we get into the Holidays.
Hi, Duane. My wife and I are still in the hunt. Life has been busy and furniture has taken a back seat for a while. We are definitely still interested in the Austin Full Recline Loveseat. Now we are trying to pick the proper hide.
We stopped by a Grand Home Furnishings to see if they by any chance would have swatches to peruse. To our surprise they actually did. But they can't come close to you on price, and since H&M is such a small fraction of what they sell, they lacked your thorough knowledge of the product. We have looked long and hard at their samples, but tried to take up as little of their time as we could. But we have narrowed our search to a few possiblities:
Caress Burgundy - we love the feel and can live with the warm look of this chocolate-cordially hide.
Quintessence Saddle - we love the feel and the look, but we are concerned whether the inevitable patina on this lighter hide will add richness or just look worn. What does daily use look like on this after 15 years?
Quintessence Bark - love the feel and like the lush walnut look alot. I'm guessing the patina here would be much more subtle since we would be starting with a darker leather to begin with.
and believe it or not, the Guss Chocolate fabric - it's sort of a poor substitute for Nabuk, but we want to make sure to explore all of the possibilities. Grand had no information on what this was made of or how it could be cleaned, so it's a big question mark.
Any quick thoughts on how these would fare with two kids starting at 2 & 4, and the possibility of a lap dog down the road? My practical side says go with the Caress, but we really like the depth and character of the Quintessence. And would any of these look particularly good or bad on the Austin?
Thanks again,
Dwain
But we have narrowed our search to a few possiblities:
Caress Burgundy - we love the feel and can live with the warm look of this chocolate-cordially hide.
Caress is a nice hide, but it does carry a more contemporary look to it. That is, it does not have any highlights (special effects), so its mostly a monotone color throughout the cover. I find most folks want some high-low contrast and you won't get that with Caress. Durability is good.
Quintessence Saddle - we love the feel and the look, but we are concerned whether the inevitable patina on this lighter hide will add richness or just look worn. What does daily use look like on this after 15 years?
Quintessence Bark - love the feel and like the lush walnut look alot. I'm guessing the patina here would be much more subtle since we would be starting with a darker leather to begin with.
Neither Quintessence is going to work satisfactorily on high-use motion with kids/dog. Its too fragile for that environment and its also an expensive class IV hide. You should take a pass on these hides, though they are beautiful! If you really do want this category leather, look at Capri, which comes from the same tannery in Germany but has a protective top coat finish (it will be labeled as unprotected, however). Capri is basically Quintessence with some resistance to spills and stains. Still a Class IV hide.
and believe it or not, the Guss Chocolate fabric - it's sort of a poor substitute for Nabuk, but we want to make sure to explore all of the possibilities.
I don't like fabric of any kind on motion furniture because it wears too quickly in comparison to leather. The problem is the cost of re-upholstery! Assume 7 years lifespan on a recliner loveseat and you'll be looking at about 15 yards fabric to recover @ 40 per yard, plus a $ 500 labor charge. $ 1,100 or so to make it work for you. Leather should last 4x longer, so it will be far more cost effective in the long run.
Take a look at Kipling, Equestrian, Auburn and Antelope in the leather. Rich feeling leathers, and they are durable as well. If you need samples, just PM me and give me your mailing address and I'll get some out to you.
Now that's the kind of info that everyone values on this forum. Clear, concise and well supported. Thanks!
I remember looking at the Antelope and Auburn lines. We had eliminated them from the running because we were looking for low sheen and (maybe just perceived) breathability. We were amazed, actually, that the Caress matched pretty well with the Quintessence by these limited standards. My wife initially was not very interested in leather at all for this piece because she didn't expect to find anything that would meet her standards in this regard.
After sitting on the only H&M piece we have found in person, an Austin Cavalier Oxblood (I'm assuming a married cover), she found it comfortable, but didn't like what she described as the 'slick' feel of the leather. But she ended up being impressed with the Caress and Quintessence. She doesn't mind the uniformity of the Caress, but I do miss the character of the analines. In the end I guess Caress is a good compromise for both of us...
I will say that Antelope was the last of the other lines that she eliminated. It was close, and a little swatch can only tell you so much. Can you refer us to a picture of a piece covered in Antelope, perhaps in the brown tones? Do you have anything in stock in any of these lines that we could check out if we made a trip in to your store?
And are the Kipling or Equestrian lines particularly shiny or slick, relatively speaking?
Hope that helps narrow it down.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwainw
One quick question, Duane. Is the picture below, from the H&M website, a piece done in Capri Harness? I've been looking for a picture of Capri Butternut on a non-tufted piece to get a better idea of the mottling in that leather on a relatively smooth piece like the Monterey series. I haven't found anything yet, but this looks an awful lot like what I envision Capri looking like, just in a different colorway. Do you know of any Capri Butternut on the H&M site?
As always, thanks so much for your help.
Dwain,
Go with the Caress, it will serve you better. Quintessence is plush, but its so oil-sensitive that with kids/dog and the piece being motion (TV, Movies) that I'd have real concerns about ruining the leather with an oil-based spill. Skip all fabrics on any kind on a motion piece, they simply friction-wear too quickly and you will be looking at a $ 800 to $ 1,000 re upholstery job in 6 to 8 years of use. Save the Quintessence for a library or living room piece, where you can enjoy it as an adult and in a lower-use environment. Did you look at Antelope? That's the nicest of the protected leathers in the line....a grade 3 hide and from Germany.
Actually we have canned Quintessence for exactly the reasons you mention. After seeing the Quintessence soak up baby oil in your store, that is when we shifted to Capri for its extra resistance. My wife and I are currently riding a teeter-totter. Initially she was against the Caress for its bland look and lack of just the right color (how many colors does Caress come in?). She preferred the richness of Capri, particularly Butternut, and wasn't so concerned about extra resistance to staining that Caress offers (the Capri sample you sent me has proven quite resistant). It took a lot to convince me that Capri's virtues would justify the extra grand or so that it would cost, but she finally succeeded. Seemingly at that very moment her practical side kicked in, and now she leans toward the Caress. And I'm left on the Capri side. I was just wondering if that was a Capri hide in the picture above, or whether you knew of any other H&M photos of Capri Butternut.
Yes, Capri is more durable than Quintessence, and they're sister hides coming from the same southern Germany tannery. Its just that Capri has a bit more topcoating on it, and can sluff off some of those oily spills. There's a good photo of a H&M Chesterfield in Capri Butternut on the PHOTO RESOURCES part of the forum under LEATHER. Did you see that one, Dwain?
Caress is a good hide, but it doesn't have a lot of visual interest as it tends to be uniform in color throughout and no high/low tones. Its still going to be more wipe and go than Capri, however. Caress has 37 colorways in the group, lots to choose from.
Capri is going to have the *WOW* factor to it, Caress is going to have the durability edge.
Hi, Duane. We've finally made a decision.
We have decided to order the Monterey series dual reclining loveseat in Caress Burgundy. The model numbers for the system that you wrote down for us when we visited your store are 2 x 2200A armless recliners, 1 x 2200LAFA rolled arm and 1 x 2200 RAFA. The price you quoted then was 4424, so with the Feb sale I figure 4203.
One customization we would to request is to delete the nails on the headrest and sides of the back, and then using 'S' nails around the bottom and up the front of the arms as usual. I can post a picture showing which nails we would like to delete if that would help. I will call you later this morning about a deposit.
Thank you very much for your guidance through this process. You have been very patient and insightful.
Thanks Dwain! Good talking with you on the phone today...got you all ordered up today and now you have to promise that you'll photo your new H&M Monterey series when its set up so we can see what it looks like. I'm expecting it to be a handsome piece.
Hi, Duane. I just thought I would share the results of the testing I did on the samples you sent to me. These results helped us really nail down the decision to use Caress leather on our new loveseat. With two busy girls and evenutally a small dog in the house, practical won out over style.
Here is a photo of Capri Butternut (top) and Caress Burgundy (bottom) with some everyday liquids applied. I placed a small drop of each on both leathers and planned on letting them sit for a while. When we tried baby oil on Capri in your store it was only for a minute or so, and I was impressed that there was very little penetration. I quickly found out here that H&M considers this leather 'unprotected' because it's slight protection layer will not handle exposure of even a few minutes. By the ten minute mark, I decided to wipe the liquids off of the Capri because most had already penetrated the surface. Notice the vinegar did not penetrate.
One hour later, I decided to wipe off the Caress as there was no signs of penetration even after this time. In hindsight, I wish that I had left liquids on the Caress longer as it ended up completely unblimished. Notice that the oils in the Capri have already started to disperse slightly.
After 24 hours, the oils in the Capri are really starting to spread out through the hide and the stains on the surface are fading noticably.
You will also notice in the lower left of each leather, I applied a small amount of rollerball ink (notorious for staining clothing) for testing.
Finally, after 3 days, the staining on the Capri had faded to the point that it almost looked like it was part of the normal mottling in the leather. It continued to fade even more after this. The end result was completely acceptable, even upon close inspection. But I'm sure these oils did not evaporate, so they are still somewhere in the hide. I would certainly think that over time, repeated exposure to oils from hands/hair/etc., even when periodically cleaned off of the surface, would eventually build up to the point that a general staining in the area would be noticable. This is probably the main factor in patina (along with wear of any topcoat).
The remains of the ink that you can barely see are all that was left after one rub of a finger. The ink had been on the surface for two days. A little more rubbing with a finger after this photo was taken and the ink was essentially gone.
In the end, the general advice that an unprotected leather would be fine for certain uses is definitely true. But these results show that it would not be wise to expose it to normal family life every day and expect it to look anywhere near new after 10 years. The protected leather on the other hand was pretty impressive at keeping everything on the outside of the leather.
Finally, even 'unprotected' leathers are not created equally. For example Quintessence would look like the first Capri photo above after 2 or 3 seconds of exposure. Capri at least gives you some protection, and it makes it practical for many more situations than a completely unprotected hide.
I initially took these pictures for my own amusement. But after seeing how well they answered many of my own questions, I just had to share them.
Well done! Impressive...glad you did that long-term stain test, Dwain. I've never done them over 24 hours, good to see that and its sure to help a lot of folks here in their decision-making process.
I have anilines in my home and some have staining on them. I find that after a period of time most all of it does indeed 'fade away' to where its barely noticeable.
<chuckle> I was just thinking that if you were to walk into 99 of 100 Hancock and Moore retailers and told them about your experiment they wouldn't have the slightest idea of what you were talking about and you'd get little more than blank stare for your efforts. Knowledgeable customers are empowered consumers!
dwainw-great info, thanks for sharing!!!
Thanks dwainw, this is good stuff!
What's the serviceability rating of Caress and Capri?
Caress is a "2" (most durable rating for Residential use) and Capri is a "3". The most fragile hides are rated "4" (such as Lambskin and Deerskin)
This is an old thread but the "stain test" on these two leathers and Dwain's detailed description are timeless and I bet many would find it very useful! Maybe we should make a Sticky Thread "H&M leathers - spills / stains testing"? I'm sure many other members perform such tests on their samples. If you'd like Duane, I'll be happy to do it (start the thread and copy / paste / quote old posts regarding the subject). Let me know!
First I want to thank everyone for such an informative site. Living in a rural area quality shopping choices are limited, salesperson knowledge is rare, and prices are high. The only H&M "dealer" less than a 10 hour round trip primarily promotes Stickley (priced at 25% off MSRP) and Thomasville. Questions about Hancock & Moore basically go unanswered.
We have the nearly the same requirements as the OP, motion furniture up to a mid 60" width, traditional style, preferably with a low back for a small living room in an 1890's house. Are the dimensions of the Austin loveseat still the same as 6 years ago? Any other models? Is power an option?
Originally we were shopping only for a stationary chair and liked the Document Copper and Saddle colors. Are these satisfactory choices for motion? Are other options better? We are retired (gentle use) but I expect this will be our primary seating for watching TV. It is also the last time I want to shop for furniture so we want something which will last.
Finally has Bradington Young changed their design? One suggestion we got was for the Reid style 912 loveseat but the tiny designer showroom didn't have any BY motion samples.
Thoughts and suggestions are welcome.
Yes, Dimensions have remained the same on the H&M Austin series for a number of years, the # 9034-20PR would be the motorized Loveseat Full Recliner at 62" overall width. You can also get that in battery power if you wish to float it in the room. This is the full recliner model, so the back goes all the way down on it - that means it needs to be away from the wall about 5". If you want to get tight to the wall, then get the Incliner model, # 8032-20 as on that one the footrest come up, the back shifts a little, but does not recline. Its available as a manual model only, same dimensions.
As neither of those two units are in the Town and Country Promotion, I'd not recommend Document. I think you can get a better hide for your money in GR 2 pricing and would go with either Aspen, Cavalier, Atticus, Ryan, Kipling, depending on what characteristics you would like. You can even drop down to a GR 1 which is less costly and get one in Columbia - which I still prefer to the more costly Document.
The B-Y 912 series is about 25% less in price than H&M and is a decent piece as well. I would expect either to give you excellent service duty over many years. If near Wash DC, I have the 912's on the floor in both Manual and Power, and several of the Austin units. Feel free to PM me for a quote on specific frames and leathers if you like, include your city/state/zip for shipping charges. I can ship 48 state.
Thanks for the quick reply. I truly wish we could visit your store, the decision would be so much easier but we live on the opposite side of the country. I think we want protected leather and glancing at the website the Aspen series appears to have the color range we prefer. We want a slight to medium mottling, don't mind some marking but not looking for the pebble appearance. Are samples still available from H&M, and can we order them ourselves or do we need to go through a dealer? Can you give me a quick lesson why you recommended those leather lines?
I think the only H&N sofa on display at the nearest dealer is an Austin, guess we make that 2 hour round trip again (sigh).
I'll tell you a little secret - I have more customers in California than here in Virginia where my store is located....
Samples are ordered via the dealer. You can contact H&M and get them yourself, but its more cumbersome and won't get there as quickly as the dealers have a direct email connection to the H&M Swatch Department.
Leather choices are just preferences that I choose based on handling thousands of pieces of leather a year. I select on hand, drape, softness, suppleness, not so much on color (which is what most people buy on), texture and grain patterns. Some leathers I don't care for as they are too processed-looking (Document) or too hard shell (Williamsburg) or too crackly-stiff (Glazed).