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Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
One of the appeals of leather furniture over fabric is the usable life-span of the cover, which is four times that of most fabrics. One of the most confusing things about leather is which one to pick as a consumer and how it performs once put in use. Let's go over some of the terminology and some of the issues of leather, to try to address concerns now - not after you order a piece!
Protected vs Unprotected
The single most asked question in selecting a cover is which do I buy? I have a strong objection over the use of the terms ' protected' and 'unprotected' but one man (that would be me) isn't going to change the definition the entire industry uses, but I'll tell you why I don't like the terms. Consumers think that when they see the word "Protected" they equate that to it being 'armored' and impervious to most things. and nothing could be farther from the truth. All a 'protected' leather means is that its a painted leather - like you have on your tennis shoes, and nothing more. How do those old Nikes look after they've been worn a couple of years? Are they still pristine or has some of the paint come off? And to explore this further, what happens to paint when friction is applied over time? It wears away - does it not? ALL PAINT CAN CRACK / CHIP / WEAR WITH USE. Leather is no exception. What painted surfaces are really good at doing however, is having everything roll off of them, from motor oil to olive oil, it all rolls off. And that's what the industry means by 'protected', that it will resist staining from substances coming in contact with it. Over time you may see friction wear and small paint chips (mostly they will looks like small white dots) as the leather is used.
Unprotected means its vat-dyed, in aniline dyes and NOT painted. So the color is soaked in and then the hide is finished with a waxy top coat, or a light coating of teflon. They tend to be more costly leathers as the majority of all hides are not good enough to be dyed and must be painted. They can absorb some spills, primarily oily and acid-based ones (bleach, ammonia, motor oil, etc). If you do get a spill, blot it up and then leave it alone. Worst thing you can do is scrub it when wet as you are setting the stain with the water and scrubbing action. Blot it, then resist touching it and it will usually fade out in anywhere from 48 hours to 6 months. Aniline dyes are also more sun-sensitive than paint and can fade quicker. When these leathers wear, they don't chip, but you can get friction wear on them as well - though they won't show 'chips' of paint. All leather can wear but personally I prefer the look of worn Aniline to worn Painted hides.
Warranty
Upholstery makers don't warranty the covers, plain and simple. That's in every warranty disclaimer from every maker I've ever seen, yet a number of customers will call up when their leather is showing wear and complain, then demand a fix as the hide is 'defective'. The typical call begins with "For as much as I paid for this sofa, I expected this leather not to do this and what are you going to do about it?" The answer - which no one wants to hear is NOTHING, the covers are not warrantied! For some reason, folks don't think that applies to them are stunned and unhappy at the answer. Leather wears, be it Protected or Unprotected, Finished (Painted) or Aniline. It will still last 4x longer than fabric but it may not look like the day it was new for all those years. Be prepared. On very rare occasions, there is a defective leather and its taken care of as a courtesy. But that is VERY rare, perhaps 1 in 100 complaints (if even that). Most likely what you consider a defect is leather wear. Cleaning and conditioning a hide go a long ways to keeping it looking nice, but that will not prevent wear. If you really want an impervious cover, buy medical grade vinyl as a cover. It won't feel very nice and certainly has no leather aroma or textures, but it will go on and on and on....Some leathers wear quicker that others, but realize no dealer - not even me - can tell you which ones do. Why? Because we have to reply on customer feedback to know and not many folks contact us four to five years after purchase to tell us how their piece is doing.
Water
Water saturation is the enemy of leather. If you really want to destroy your leather furniture, have the kids come in from the swimming pool in their wet bathing suits and sit on the leather furniture to watch a movie on TV. That will do the trick and you cannot repair the hide. This is also why you don't see leather in medical buildings and exam room furniture - it can't take moisture saturation.
Handmade & Tolerances
We're used to everything being made to fine tolerances on robotic production lines, from the cars we drive to the computers we type on to the phones we talk on. The upholstery industry is positively stone-age in comparison. There are no robots or automated machinery in an upholstery factory. You walk in the door of one and you hear three sounds. 1) Sewing machines 2) Pneumatic staplers 3) Mallets striking wood. There are no lasers cutting material, no motorized carts taking a frame from one area to another, its a handmade business. As such, you're going to see build tolerances vary by as much as 2" from one piece to another. Some pieces will have more padding and some less. There will be hammer strikes and small dents near the legs and bases on many pieces. The finish on the bottom of the legs is likely to be scuffed as the pieces are moved along the concrete floor from one place to another. There will be visible scars on leather that you can see, especially on the better hides (remember the inexpensive hides are painted, and paint covers everything). You may see silver crayon in the seams of the piece from the grease pencil they use when pattern cutting. These are not faults, but nuances of a hand-made product. If you demand perfection, you should buy off the floor at a store where you can examine the piece before purchasing.
Warranties & Defects
In the furniture industry, the dealer is the customer of the producer and YOU are the customer of the dealer. The dealer handles all concerns and issues on your behalf, not the manufacturer. A lot of folks struggle with this concept and want to go right to the factory direct is they have an issue, but that should only be done is all avenues through the selling dealer are exhausted. In the event of a warranty or defect issue, the consumer is responsible for returning the piece to the store or to the factory and the costs of doing so as well. This is not insignificant, for if you live in California and the factory is in North Carolina, its going to be $ 400 to ship a sofa back and this is important to remember this if you're considering buying long distance vs your local dealer. To add to that, if the piece arrives back at the factory and is within spec and not defective, the customer pays for return freight as well. In my experience (I've done this a lot) 95 % of all returns are NOT defective and due to something the customer either does not understand or does not wish to tolerate in a build (i.e., comfort level, appearance of leather vs swatch, friction and use wear vs defective hides, amount of padding vs floor model seen, shipping damages from moving, etc.) Now you have 2-way shipping and are REALLY upset! This is why I require a signed sales contract that spells all this out on my orders, as do most dealers. Read it and understand it and realize you will not be the exception to it - its simple contract law. In today's consumer-oriented society upset customers will often threaten to do charge-backs to their credit cards unless they get their way, and that signed contract protects the dealer and spells out the terms of the order. Again, Read your sales order and understand what you are agreeing to BEFORE you order.
The Nigglies
90% of all furniture requires some form of minor 'deluxing' or 'touch-up' when it comes out of the box. This is very minor stuff, and it can be a dab of color here or there, or a little steel wooling to even out a blemish, etc. Its not a big deal for the dealer, we expect it. However when a delivery company brings you a piece guess who does the 'deluxing'? YOU DO ! The guys on the truck are not going to do it - and you probably don't want them to even if they offer to do so (I swear they are all color-blind for one thing). Be prepared for these minor marks if you order long distance and once again weigh this against buying locally where the deluxing is already done for you when the piece arrives at the dealer.
Hope that helps cover a few things that perhaps were not previously discussed!
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
I read your primer on leather which was very helpful. But it seemed to contradict what I had read on Bradington-Young's website about choosing the right leather. That led me to believe that given my lifestyle (rather careless) and the fact that I have 2 cats, I should settle for a protected leather. Arfer reading your primer, I'm not so sure.
I will be eating and drinking in my recliner, which means that I am bound to have some spills. I've never been terribly diligent about cleaning them up right away, but then, I have never spent $2500 for a recliner! I expect I will be a lot more careful. Still, there will be spills from time to time.
The cat issue -- they do not scratch my leather sofa directly. But when they launch themselves from the sofa to anywhere else, their back claws do make scratches. My sofa is navy leather, and each scratch shows up almost white. I hate this, and I want to avoid it in my new recliner.
Sunlight is not an issue. My living room has only one frosted window pane in the door, and the only other window that gives light to the living room is in the dining room, and the shades are almost always closed -- night and day.
But given the fact that I will be eating and drinking (and occasionally spilling) in the recliner, and that the cats will have access to the chair any time I am not in it,mw hat do you recommend?
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
If you search the forum, you will see a post I made last Sunday of how all my leather in my house looks over a period of time, and its all aniline. My own personal opinion is you can get too caught up in this whole 'protected' vs 'unprotected' thing and it puts a lot of folks into a tailspin. With the exception of a few specialty leathers such as Lambskin, Deerskin and the Suedes, the reality is that you should get the leather you like, either based on color, the tactile feel, the grain, or that suits your budget. I like the look of more natural anilines. I have only ONE finished leather piece in my house, a Hancock and Moore Woodbridge Recliner which was my first leather purchase in 1986. It's 28 years old now and still in use and quite presentable. I bought that before I knew anything about leather but since then all others have been aniline. Here's a photo of it that I just took in the middle or writing this post, not bad for being almost three decades old, eh? Its still on the original cushions as well.
Attachment 5871
Fact of the matter is like most things, take reasonable care of it and it will last, neglect it and it won't. There is no cat-resistant leather - furniture grade leather was never made for pet usage in mind so you can give up trying to find one that is, because it doesn't exist. You take your chances depending on the temperament and behavior of your particular pets and roll the dice on it. Painted or Finished leathers (Protected) have the color on top - so if scratched will show through to the base hide like you are seeing on your Navy sofa. Aniline hides are dyed all the way through - so if you get a deep scratch on them they will still have color underneath the mark. Good luck!
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
My dogs no longer jump up on the furniture but they used to prefer my document tobacco journey sofa and chair. We were starting to get some scratches so we started putting the coffee table right up against the sofa and a throw carelessly thrown on the seat of the chair. Problem solved. A contrasting throw across the chair might help and look good at the same time. Hope it helps =)
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
The cat scratches in my sofa are not deep, but they really show up. So I'm thinking anoline. I like to look and feel of it better, and the only reason I had decided not to consider it was the information on the BY webpage. Regardless of what I buy, I will never love a piece of piece of furniture more than my two worthless ball a of fur! So I realize that some scratches are not just possible, but inevitable. One cat is declawed, and the other is so docile that he lets me to keep his claws trimmed. In fact, all I have to say, is, "Time of a pedicure," and he comes running! This is NOT typical cat behavior, but there is nothing typical about him! I just hope that any scratches that to happen are not as prominent looking as they are on my navy sofa.
Vbnet -- I'm glad you were able to solve your dog issues. But cats are not dogs, despite my best efforts to convince them otherwise! :-) they would revel in the opportunity to overcome any barriers I might be able to use!
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
And drcollie, the photo of your chair is gorgeous! The leather is lovely, rich lived-in look that appears to have only improved with age.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
l Ahh, so I've been told. I've been thinking of getting a kitten next summer, but I am used to more than a little cooperation. Anoline seems sensible! Think of it as the cats just want you to have the best because you deserve it =)
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
My issue is when manufacturers and then stores blur the lines between vinyl and cheap leather. Many times they'll list cheap leather when its actually vinyl to entice customers to buy an item they otherwise shouldn't. Moral for me is to stick with good quality leather or no leather at all.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Manufacturers and Stores 'blur that line' because the retail customer is demanding something that is impossible for them to make & sell at what the consumer thinks is a fair price point. They react to the demands of that consumer and if a consumer wants to play in that cheap furniture sandbox, then they should not be too surprised to find there is cat poop buried in the sand. The key is to deal with a better class of store, and realize that a quality product is going to have a cost to it. I often hear "I want a new leather sofa but I'm not paying over a thousand dollars for it". Heck I'd like a steak dinner at the Outback for $ 1.99 as well, but its not going to happen - and if they bring me one out at that price, it probably wouldn't be beef.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Hello Duane,
Last week I had sent you a PM requesting a price qute for some B&Y sofas/loveseats. I had thought I wanted an "Unprotected" leather but I am confused with the characteristics associated with the terms "Protected" and "Unprotected" in your original post. I thought I had wanted an "unprotected" leather, however when I felt an "Unprotected" leather, I could make marks very easily with a light scratch of my finger nail (I understand it can be rubbed out) and it is also much more elastic than i expected which will lead to that sagging look i do not enjoy. However, when I handled Julian Harbor Elmotique 9085-89 leather it had a protective coating yet states that it is an aniline dye and had all the characteristics that I wanted such as buttery soft, less elasticity and not easly scratched. It seems to me that there is a lot of "grey" rather than a clear definition of protected/unprotected leathers whether they are aniline dyed or not? I went on the H&M website and choose a couple of Sofas for a price quote in lieu of the February sale but they have all their leathers categorized by "protected" and "Unprotected" so I am at a standstill because I want aniline dye and some protection but not sure which leathers to request a sample for.
Thanks so much for this forum!
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
I don't particularly like the terms "Unprotected" and "Protected" because it implies one is fragile and the other is armored, and its not true in either one. What is a scratch but a pressure mark? Your fingernails can exert quite a bit at the tip of fingernail as we all know. Certain leathers such as pull-ups are designed to color-burst when pressure is applied and that is frequently the 'scratch' that one hears about. They can be 'pushed-out' by head and pressure from the palm of ones hands. In finished leather (Protected) there is a painted top coat. Its harder to scratch a painted surface but its doesn't mean you can't do it. Most anilines have some kind of a topcoat on them. Sometimes its a wax, other times teflon - but its always thin and doesn't interfere with the beauty of the leather. A Semi-Aniline has a heavier topcoat with pigmentation added.
As a general rule, the softer the leather, the less topcoat is on them. More topcoat + more resistance to things. In H&M, Equestrian and any of the Burnished leathers are a great choice for Anilines that can take a lot of wear and tear and still look good.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
I was just wondering about Burnished leather today and how it compared with Protected leather. Is it just a light coloring or is it painted on like I've read that a protected coating is. Would it chip or wear on welting etc. When I think of burnished, I think rubbed to smooth out. Like burnishing an edge of a scraper tool.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Burnished leather is a toner coat applied to a pure aniline hide and then sealed onto the leather. I have it in my own home. It has a good track record for holding up well.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
An update to this thread as this seemed a good place to post this topic.
One or two customers a year receive their leather furniture and will decide they have a defect or damage in their leather and pursue a remedy for that aggressively. This mostly happens on distance deliveries as any local ones to my store I can simply go over to the customer's home and see the piece easily enough. However when there are many hundreds of miles distance, that's not possible. Customers will send me photographs, but those photos are largely un-reliable, as the cameras are not good enough to show the kind of high resolution for that kind of evaluation and they are sometimes run through Photoshop to exaggerate any markings to make them more dramatic. The only sure-fire way is to have someone who knows leather very well to take a look at it. Often this means the piece has to be returned to the maker to be looked at, which incurs transport costs to and from. In 85% to 90% of all returns done this way, there is nothing wrong with the hide - its natural markings. I kid you not. EIGHTY-FIVE TO NINETY PERCENT. The remaining 10% to 15% is split between freight damage and / or defective leather.
When a customer does this return process - at their expense - they expect something to be done to the piece to correct it in their eyes. However, if there is nothing wrong with the item and it meets the build and quality control standards, then nothing will be done except to return it to the customer. This is not what that customer wants to hear, and most often they will refuse to accept the piece back. This creates an entire set of new problems as it then becomes 'abandoned freight' and will eventually be disposed of. Typically challenges of legal action, credit card chargebacks and the like develop and it gets difficult. All the explaining in the world does not change their thinking because they have a perception of the hide being flawed when it is not.
Folks, remember that leather, REAL LEATHER is the skin of an animal. It is not perfect any more than your own skin is perfect. If you demand a 100% unflawed and totally uniform surface on your upholstery, then buy vinyl or bonded / bi-cast leather, which are essentially plastics and are done with a mold. You cannot get this perfection out of genuine top grain leather. Some hides will be 'cleaner' than others, and severe flaws are 'marked out' during the layout and cutting phase of the hide. Things such as healed scars, tick bites, fat wrinkles, grain variances and the like will be left in the leather and used. Most all the time, this is what that customer that has returned their furniture is seeing. While the vast majority of customers are very pleased with that is delivered to them, if you know you are a person seeking perfection in a leather piece, then you should buy local off the floor where you can examine the piece throughly before purchase to make sure it meets the standards you have set.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
if I may add my two cents (and I usually do!)......last year I got a recliner in Capri claret. When it arrived, I was bowled over by how very beautiful it was (and still is). That being said, the leather in the seat had this weird wavy pattern. It was very faint, but of course, I noticed it. I was sick, but I didn't do anything about it. And here's the thing.....in under a week, I had come to love it. It made my recliner special -- a one-of-a-kind. In short, it had character.
A year of so later, this wavy pattern has gotten a bit more noticeable. This is not due to sun exposure; its cleaned regularly, yada, yada, yada. And you know what? I love it even more now than when it first arrived. There's a lot to be said about character. Once in a while, someone will comment on it. My response is, "Yes, isn't it beautiful? I wonder what part of the cow it came from."
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Here's a few photos I took today of some leather pieces that are perfectly acceptable, but would be considered unacceptable faults by those looking for perfection such as one would get with a vinyl covering. First is the back of a H&M Sundance sofa in Portfolio Claret, you can see welts in the hide at this angle. This is not a defect, this is a natural marking.
Attachment 7242
Next are these wonderful fat wrinkles on Weston Cane Burnished. I've had people say "I can't stand the stripes", and all that tells when they say that is they are not used to seeing real leather:
Attachment 7243Attachment 7244
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
That's what the strippe in the seat of my recliner are -- fat wrinkles! I love it! Mine are much more subtle, and they are a but wavy. But as I said earlier, I like the character of it.
BTW...I've had back surgery twice since late February (Happy birthday to me!), and o haven't been able to sit in my recliner for a while. I have a friend who has repeatedly said what a shame it is that I can't enjoy it. But she's wrong...I enjoy looking at it, and I rub my hand across it when I walk by it! Meanwhile, Leon Kitty has taken it for his own. But I am now able to sit in the first reclined position with a small pillow behind my back for short periods. And I have no doubt that eventually, I'll be napping there again! Still my favorite purchase in a long, long time.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Hi Duane,
I saw this photo of a pottery barn sofa online today: ]
I was just wondering, what happened to the leather that made is so loose and wrinkly, and how do you prevent that from happening?Attachment 8402
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
That is one used-up sofa. Used and Abused.
1) Sun Damage, lots of it
2) High use
3) Low Cow Hide Grade, not High Quality Steer Hides - Steer hides stretch out much less than Cow Hides.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
Attachment 7242
Next are these wonderful fat wrinkles on Weston Cane Burnished. I've had people say "I can't stand the stripes", and all that tells when they say that is they are not used to seeing real leather:
Attachment 7243Attachment 7244
I love the fat wrinkles. No two are alike. My chairs in Tiburon Sable have some, but they are difficult to see against the darkness of the colorway.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Duane,
My samples for Sonoma & Nubuck came in today & was very pleasantly surprised to also find a sample for the CC nail heads tucked into the envelope: thank you very much for adding that :)
My initial reactions:
Nubuck is to die for!! Lol, I just want to keeping rubbing that little swatch, it's so deliciously smooth & soft. Nubuck Camel is right on the money as far as the desired color goes too.
The Sonoma swatches smell wonderful; like a leather jacket, or the inside of a new designer handbag. They're velvety soft too, but have a considerably more nubby texture to them than the Nubuck. Now I'm in a pickle: if I go with the Parisian, I'd ideally like it as close to the original as possible, & Chanel had her sofa upholstered in a very light camel/tan suede.
If you had to offer your expert opinion for doing an entire sofa in either of these hides: what is it?
Nubuck isn't nubby at all, despite its name. I feel like it'd be easier to "slide" in & out of than the Sonoma. But, the Sonoma's are authentic to the original. And, if my end goal in going with the Parisian is to own a sofa as close to the original Coco Chanel sofa as possible, in addition to having always loved her unique take on the classic roll arm, AND it'd be used by me alone as MY personal lounging/watching tv/chilling out on sofa(no kids & 2 very well behaved pets,) is it worth it to go for a less functional daily use hide for the sake of achieving authenticity, style, & comfort(I'm 5'9" btw?)
I like the Sonoma suedes, & have no doubt they'd feel amazing curling up on: luxuriously velvety soft, like a cashmere sweater; there's just a bit more friction from the nubby texture when running my hand over it.
Oh, I don't know if you saw this either in an updated quote, or as a reply to another post, but going off of H&M's site, I was unaware the CC nail head was silver/pewter toned. It looked brass in color to me, thus my choosing it.
It really only works with the Sonoma Fawn as that color has quite a bit of grey in it to really work with the CC. I'd actually prefer either the standard nail head trim photographed on the Parisian online, or that nail's equivalent in a more antiqued brass tone. Again, just going off the pics on H&M's site; it's very difficult to get any real sense of nail color & size. I'm thinking this must happen constantly: sending out thousands of nail samples that are instantly ruled out once they're seen in person, simply because many ppl's only source of reference is the website.
I understand it's an extremely expensive & time consuming undertaking for H&M to update their site into a more modern, interactive site. But, maybe even suggesting adding a "rendering tool" where prospective buyers could use a base frame to virtually try out different leathers, welts, gimps & nail head trims would be so helpful. AND, it wouldn't require them having to have a photo uploaded of every frame in every leather, etc.
Just use the City Sofa & allow the user to click on any leather or fabric & the picture would render what that choice would look like. Preferably with a detailed zoom in option too.
At the end of the day, I think it'd actually save them money for their bottom line, as well as minimize waste generated from sending out what must amount to thousands of samples that are instantly ruled out, then trashed.
Lol, just a thought I'd throw out there. Most of the big box stores have this feature on their websites & it's an immeasurable tool. These little CC nail heads could've been put to better use had I actually been able to see their true color & size on a frame online. Just using my particular experience with this 1 set of nails & multiply that across the board, everyday, with everyone else making the same assumptions/mistakes...etc, etc. Haha, you can see where I'm going with this.
Ok sorry for going off topic & rambling on. Anyone else agree this would be an amazing tool to have on H&M's website?? Speak up & throw your votes in now: we just may be able to persuade Duane to run it by Jimmy Moore :)
Once again, thank you so much for getting these swatches out to me so quickly. I can't imagine how little you must sleep between running this great forum & the store?!
Grateful as always,
Andrea :)
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
<laughing> I stop answering emails and forum posts about midnight, and start up again about 7 a.m....
Sonoma is a true suede and more coarse - made from the splits, Nubuck is a Top Grain pure aniline that is buffed down, so its a finer leather than a true suede however has limited colors. I am not a fan of either on a seating surface - you can't slide on either one and that's a real annoyance after a bit. We don't think about 'sliding' when in a sofa, but you do it every time you adjust your position, and most the time you don't even realize how much you do. However, I understand what you are going for in a look. My advice would be this - and it will cost you a bit of money to do it - go ahead and order it as you like, then buy an extra seat casing in the leather the main body is going to be in - assuming you are not doing the whole piece in a suede. That way you have them to fall back on and out of the same dye lot as the leather body in case you do tire of the suede or nubuck seat, or simply stain it to the point it needs to be replaced (both those leathers are very hard to clean).
I have better photos of the H&M nails here on the forum as a sticky than the H&M website photo. Click my photo three times and you get a nice, hi-res photo.
The software you speak of isn't going to happen - I've been beating that drum for almost two decades and they won't invest the money into that consumer web tool. Its expensive to do so, and would require a full time employee to keep up with all the frame and cover changes as well as frame adds and drops. THis is not a wealthy industry like many others. Margins are tight, and there is not much fat in it.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
<laughing> I stop answering emails and forum posts about midnight, and start up again about 7 a.m....
Sonoma is a true suede and more coarse - made from the splits, Nubuck is a Top Grain pure aniline that is buffed down, so its a finer leather than a true suede however has limited colors. I am not a fan of either on a seating surface - you can't slide on either one and that's a real annoyance after a bit. We don't think about 'sliding' when in a sofa, but you do it every time you adjust your position, and most the time you don't even realize how much you do. However, I understand what you are going for in a look. My advice would be this - and it will cost you a bit of money to do it - go ahead and order it as you like, then buy an extra seat casing in the leather the main body is going to be in - assuming you are not doing the whole piece in a suede. That way you have them to fall back on and out of the same dye lot as the leather body in case you do tire of the suede or nubuck seat, or simply stain it to the point it needs to be replaced (both those leathers are very hard to clean).
I have better photos of the H&M nails here on the forum as a sticky than the H&M website photo. Click my photo three times and you get a nice, hi-res photo.
The software you speak of isn't going to happen - I've been beating that drum for almost two decades and they won't invest the money into that consumer web tool. Its expensive to do so, and would require a full time employee to keep up with all the frame and cover changes as well as frame adds and drops. THis is not a wealthy industry like many others. Margins are tight, and there is not much fat in it.
Ooh yea, I figured if it's 2016 & their website is what it is with the limited photos & info, etc if they were to have some sort of rendering tool on there, it'd have already been done.
Lol, like I said: I'm just brainstorming here on ideas. I'm assuming they've already crunched the cost/benefit analysis of doing that & it's actually cheaper for them to continue sending out samples(of anything,) as requested than allowing prospective buyers a tool to aide them in narrowing down their choices BEFORE requesting samples? I'm just thinking at the end of the day, it'd help their bottom line.
And yep, you're right: I really only see that mind of advanced technology on the major retailer's sites & they've got the resources to do it.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
There are two things I am directly responsible for on many of the web sites of the brands I sell. One is to actually put photos of samples on the web site so you could see a representation of the leather, fabric, wood finish and nail trim without going into a store. That took about five years of my constant badgering for them to do. The resistance was "Photos are not accurate, what if someone buys a piece based on the web photo and then complains and wants us to take it back?" My rebuttal was 'the photos are there to help them narrow their choices to ask for samples, not to order from." They relented mostly because I told them the internet was the future of shopping and they had to do it. Second was the dealer locator function, so you could find the dealer closest to the customer without going to the Yellow Pages. The objection there was people would have a tool to price shop one dealer against another, and I said "They're going to do that anyways, a dealer listings will just make it easier for them to find the stores closest to them." That took at least three years to implement. Today Google Search is so good that Yellow Pages are dead, but back in the day before Google, search engines were unreliable for things like dealership locators.
What I have not been able to accomplish with pressure for better web sites: 1) Minimum door threshold requirements to get into the doors per piece, 2) weight of each piece, 3) sectional schematics with drawn dimensions 4) A Master Dealer designator, so that customers know which dealer in a region has a high presence in the line (40 to 50 pieces) vs the dealer that has 1 piece on the floor and an out-of-date swatch handle.
This is an old school industry, they do not put money into technology. To check status on an order, or what leather of fabric is in-stock requires a phone call during the weekday.
Orders are still done via Fax Machines!
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jenny
Hi Duane,
I saw this photo of a pottery barn sofa online today: ]
I was just wondering, what happened to the leather that made is so loose and wrinkly, and how do you prevent that from happening?
Attachment 8402
While not that bad, that is what a Mission style chair, loveseat and couch I purchased from Bassett looked like after 12 years of lighter use - the biggest users were the dogs who loved to lay on top of the back cushions. We used it on and off but not continuously over the years (and didn't do the best job of cleaning the leather and conditioning it) and it looked almost like that. Now, for a sofa, loveseat and chair, I paid in 2002 the equivalent of the cost a single sofa from H&M in Gr 3 leather in 2016 but the leather faded, stretched and the cushions lost their resiliency. We paid for their "top-tier" leather and it was anything but top-tier.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
There are two things I am directly responsible for on many of the web sites of the brands I sell. One is to actually put photos of samples on the web site so you could see a representation of the leather, fabric, wood finish and nail trim without going into a store. That took about five years of my constant badgering for them to do. The resistance was "Photos are not accurate, what if someone buys a piece based on the web photo and then complains and wants us to take it back?" My rebuttal was 'the photos are there to help them narrow their choices to ask for samples, not to order from." They relented mostly because I told them the internet was the future of shopping and they had to do it. Second was the dealer locator function, so you could find the dealer closest to the customer without going to the Yellow Pages. The objection there was people would have a tool to price shop one dealer against another, and I said "They're going to do that anyways, a dealer listings will just make it easier for them to find the stores closest to them." That took at least three years to implement. Today Google Search is so good that Yellow Pages are dead, but back in the day before Google, search engines were unreliable for things like dealership locators.
What I have not been able to accomplish with pressure for better web sites: 1) Minimum door threshold requirements to get into the doors per piece, 2) weight of each piece, 3) sectional schematics with drawn dimensions 4) A Master Dealer designator, so that customers know which dealer in a region has a high presence in the line (40 to 50 pieces) vs the dealer that has 1 piece on the floor and an out-of-date swatch handle.
This is an old school industry, they do not put money into technology. To check status on an order, or what leather of fabric is in-stock requires a phone call during the weekday.
Orders are still done via Fax Machines!
Wait, you're saying, you have NOT been able to persuade them to add minimum threshold requirements for anything?! Why??
I haven't really looked that deep into their site, but just figured they were on the tear sheets. I have noticed it's asked about quite a bit on the forum & wondered why aren't they just printing out a tear sheet? That SHOULD be standard info on a tear sheet, along with dimensions, etc. That's not difficult to add or all that time consuming for a somewhat major manufacturer.
I'm not comparing H&M to RH at all: but, every furniture style(ex: Lancaster seating group) on the RH website has a "detailed info" PDF download accompanying it. It's just a basic Excel spreadsheet listing all the pieces in that specific group's lineup on the vertical axis & the piece's dimensions & their minimum threshold requirements on the horizontal axis. It's about as basic as it gets: no pictures or scaled drawings, etc...just a simple, little spreadsheet.
H&M could & absolutely should add at least minimum threshold requirements on the tear sheets.
The more a customer can reasonably narrow down their choices & options on their own before going round to all the retailers in their area to seek out that info, the better.
It cuts down on dealers having to spend time answering the basics & would allow them to focus their energies on the actual selling of the item based on what the customer was able to rule out, narrow options down to, etc on their own.
If I was a dealer, that'd prob be 1 of my biggest pet peeves: ppl coming into my store just to get basic info on an item only to realize it won't fit or work in their space.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dmattinson
While not that bad, that is what a Mission style chair, loveseat and couch I purchased from Bassett looked like after 12 years of lighter use - the biggest users were the dogs who loved to lay on top of the back cushions. We used it on and off but not continuously over the years (and didn't do the best job of cleaning the leather and conditioning it) and it looked almost like that. Now, for a sofa, loveseat and chair, I paid in 2002 the equivalent of the cost a single sofa from H&M in Gr 3 leather in 2016 but the leather faded, stretched and the cushions lost their resiliency. We paid for their "top-tier" leather and it was anything but top-tier.
From Bassett as well?
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
At the end of the day, all I can do is suggest. It's their company and their money to spend! Somethings take hold, others not so much.
One thing I was able to do today was to convince Taylor King to begin a 5% off Sale Program like we did with Hancock and Moore in February. This will be a first, and I have a few more details to work out before its put in place, but expect that to happen next month.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Hi Duane,
Another craigslist curiosity for you:
http://images.craigslist.org/00P0P_f...Ez_600x450.jpg
What happened here to make that sofa so stained in the middle?
Edit: Also, about those fat wrinkles.. whenever I see them, I think, "mhmm, that must be a yummy cow":D
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
That's a nasty sofa....lots and lots of soiling and never cleaned. That one is ready for the landfill.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
That's a nasty sofa....lots and lots of soiling and never cleaned. That one is ready for the landfill.
That's not also oxidation of the leather, similar to how Louis Vuitton's leather will darken over time? Lol yep, that's one ugly couch! Those light leathers look great in cars...NOT so much in a house!
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Ugh, & that's a prime example of that 80s "Italian leather" sofa look: PASS!!
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Yay. Good to know. I was wondering if it was dirty, or if the leather changed color, but now I know.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jenny
Yay. Good to know. I was wondering if it was dirty, or if the leather changed color, but now I know.
Jenny,
I think it's a little bit of both. Oxidation AND neglect. Just put that nasty thing outta its misery already!! Lol
I'd be really interested in seeing who'd actually buy that sofa! The cost to reupholster it, in leather, would prob run close to the cost of a brand-new, low to mid-end leather sofa. Haha...oh well, it's not MY good money somebody's throwing after bad!!
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
I’m feeling the same way. There seems to be a middle ground. The leather on the reclining sofa and recliner I’m purchasing seems to be the best of both worlds. A Grade 3 (in the middle) full grain aniline plus. (semi-aniline isn’t even the correct term, since it’s dyed just as full aniline,) however afterward there’s a light protective coating to make it a bit more durable for heavy use and to protect somewhat against spills and body oils, surfaces scratches, etc.
Duane, this is what I’m referring to:
ANILINE PLUS LEATHER — Leather that has been aniline dyed and finished with a clear topcoat to ensure more protection against spills and stains.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Studdabaker
Hello Duane,
Last week I had sent you a PM requesting a price qute for some B&Y sofas/loveseats. I had thought I wanted an "Unprotected" leather but I am confused with the characteristics associated with the terms "Protected" and "Unprotected" in your original post. I thought I had wanted an "unprotected" leather, however when I felt an "Unprotected" leather, I could make marks very easily with a light scratch of my finger nail (I understand it can be rubbed out) and it is also much more elastic than i expected which will lead to that sagging look i do not enjoy. However, when I handled Julian Harbor Elmotique 9085-89 leather it had a protective coating yet states that it is an aniline dye and had all the characteristics that I wanted such as buttery soft, less elasticity and not easly scratched. It seems to me that there is a lot of "grey" rather than a clear definition of protected/unprotected leathers whether they are aniline dyed or not? I went on the H&M website and choose a couple of Sofas for a price quote in lieu of the February sale but they have all their leathers categorized by "protected" and "Unprotected" so I am at a standstill because I want aniline dye and some protection but not sure which leathers to request a sample for.
Thanks so much for this forum!
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Sorry, but you are using terms that don’t exist in the industry.
Any time you finish a dyed base hide with a paint color coat on top of the hide it is classed as a semi-aniline and is much closer to a finished leather than a pure aniline. It is not a clear coat, it’s been sanded and has a color coat. Where you see a heavy use of semi-anilines is is premium car leather interiors where they sell an upgraded leather package and they call it “ natural” leather which confuses a lot of buyers. You can’t use pure aniline in vehicle interiors, the Sun and staining eat them up. A semi-aniline is a little softer, generally, so it can stand up to sun and spills in a vehicle, because it’s still a painted leather when all is said and done. So yes, it’s better for hard use but it will never have the buttery softness or natural grain patterns of a pure aniline because it’s been sanded, embossed and painted.
To give you an easier to understand analogy, let’s equate the leathers to beef you buy at the grocery store.
Finished leathers are hamburger. Regular ground beef that’s commonly available, a grocery store staple and made of all beef cuts in the meat case with frozen bull fat strips added to the grind for higher fat content and flavor.
Semi-Anilines are Ground Sirloin. No bull fat added, all parts of steaks cuts close to going out of date including fats ground up. Not as fatty as regular ground beef. Slightly better flavor and texture.
Pure Anilines are steaks. The best are New York Strips, or even a few Wagyu for those wanting the best of the best.
There is a big jump from beef grinds to steak is the point. The ground beef and the ground sirloin are much closer together than moving to steak.
(I used to be in the grocery business and worked in the meat dept for three months as required to become a store manager)
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Thank you, Duane. I understand and I knew what you were saying before you wrote it. I also love the look of pure aniline and the natural patina. And later for our front room we very well may go with that. But, for our family room we’re willing to give up some of that “natural aging” process in favor of a little more protection long term. No, we aren’t purists, although that doesn’t mean we don’t appreciate pure aniline leather. So, there are some of us who will compromise in order to feel more secure about the worry of staining and no sun protection. I feel at least I’m starting with full grain leather that has been dipped in dye to begin with. The coating just gives me peace of mind, whereas it might cause others to shudder. Thanks once again for your knowledge! It’s much appreciated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
Sorry, but you are using terms that don’t exist in the industry.
Any time you finish a dyed base hide with a paint color coat on top of the hide it is classed as a semi-aniline and is much closer to a finished leather than a pure aniline. It is not a clear coat, it’s been sanded and has a color coat. Where you see a heavy use of semi-anilines is is premium car leather interiors where they sell an upgraded leather package and they call it “ natural” leather which confuses a lot of buyers. You can’t use pure aniline in vehicle interiors, the Sun and staining eat them up. A semi-aniline is a little softer, generally, so it can stand up to sun and spills in a vehicle, because it’s still a painted leather when all is said and done. So yes, it’s better for hard use but it will never have the buttery softness or natural grain patterns of a pure aniline because it’s been sanded, embossed and painted.
To give you an easier to understand analogy, let’s equate the leathers to beef you buy at the grocery store.
Finished leathers are hamburger. Regular ground beef that’s commonly available, a grocery store staple and made of all beef cuts in the meat case with frozen bull fat strips added to the grind for higher fat content and flavor.
Semi-Anilines are Ground Sirloin. No bull fat added, all parts of steaks cuts close to going out of date including fats ground up. Not as fatty as regular ground beef. Slightly better flavor and texture.
Pure Anilines are steaks. The best are New York Strips, or even a few Wagyu for those wanting the best of the best.
There is a big jump from beef grinds to steak is the point. The ground beef and the ground sirloin are much closer together than moving to steak.
(I used to be in the grocery business and worked in the meat dept for three months as required to become a store manager)
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
This is awesome information about leather! I know some things about leather but wasn't aware of how much there is to know about leather. I'm not a big fan of leather recliners or furniture but having more knowledge is certainly beneficial down the road!
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
What product do you recommend for wear on the leather? We have two Smith Brothers recliners, and one has wear on the ends of the arms. Thank you.
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Re: Leather Furniture and what you can - and cannot expect
Hi Margie,
You might find this thread helpful! Talks all about leather care and recommended products: https://www.myfurnitureforum.com/sho...t=leather+care