Warm brown (almost orange) leather option

First off, hats off to Duane for running this fantastic resource. Duane, we spoke on the phone earlier today about a Sundance sofa+chaise situation, which sounded like it wouldn't be possible without going fully custom. A bit outside my price range for now, but I like your alternate idea about the custom ottoman!

Situation: My wife and I are having second thoughts on our leather selection. We went to a H&M dealer earlier today who didn't appear to know a tenth of what is in these forums, and they suggested leathers like the Document collection, or insisting that Protected leather is really the only way to go. The unprotected leathers that I felt were 'tough' like the Equestrian were dismissed. In the words of the sales staff: "Even if scratches don't show up, the oils will get you...". We had our two toddlers with us so I'm assuming that played into it.

We ended up settling on the Quest Chestnut which looked closest to the Equestrian but in protected leather. We weren't overly thrilled with either, but it looks like it has potential in the light based on the small swatch provided. We haven't ordered yet.

In reading these forums, I'm understanding that if I apply the 'Aniline Leather Barrier' and regularly clean/condition the leather, I can go pretty far with a 'non-protected' leather.

Requirements: The biggest things we want out of a new sofa is (a) that really warm brown coloring of the leather (b) nice feel and (c) resistance to scratches.

(A) was surprisingly hard to find in the leather swatches or in the images online. I now understand what a huge element lighting plays in showing the depth and complexity of these leathers, which makes perfect sense.
(B) is hard when limited to Protected leathers.
(C) I understand that scratches are actually a feature for some leathers, but I'm not looking for that at the moment, unless it's super trivial to get rid of the scratches.

Options: With those three criteria in mind, are there any leathers we should particularly pivot towards or steer away from? Here are the ones that caught our eye from reading over this forum but we wish we had some time with them in person.

1) Capri Harness (IV - Will likely avoid if I can due to $$, and I believe I read here that it stains pretty easily)
2) Capri Butternut (IV - Ditto)
3) Buckingham Walnut
4) Equestrian Saddle
5) Hyde Park Earth
6) Hyde Park Tan
7) Imperial Whiskey
8) Wade Chestnut

Thanks!

We went to a H&M dealer earlier today who didn't appear to know a tenth of what is in these forums, and they suggested leathers like the Document collection, or insisting that Protected leather is really the only way to go.

This is a pretty common scenario and happens all the time. Many dealers selling H&M don't even know what "Protected" means, just that you better not buy an "Unprotected" hide or terrible, bad things will happen to your furniture! This is not the case at all. In a nutshell:

Protected = Painted Leather
UnProtected = Aniline Dyed Leather

This is a conversation I have at least ten times a week with customers in the store, so I'm pretty good at it. I personally sell about a 50/50 mix of both, each has its strengths and weaknesses.

Protected: Like anything that is painted, you are applying a pigmented topcoat to a sanded surface. The reason the leather was sanded is because it had too many flaws to become an aniline hide. So, not only are all natural markings removed, but you have a uniform, painted surface over an embossed grain pattern. All paint - no matter what its applied to (house, car, leather, etc) eventually wears off with use and time, its unavoidable. However, its excellent at shedding anything spilled on it and has significantly more resistance to sun (UV) fade.

UnProtected: Only 6% of hides worldwide are good enough to be vegetable vat dyed. All the natural markings are in place such as fat wrinkles, scars, moles, bug bites, etc. Grain pattern will vary as its left intact, not sanded away. The leathers are more supple, more interesting and more costly. Aniline leathers will build patina over time and the color will not wear off. HOWEVER - and this is a big HOWEVER - they are more susceptible to UV sunlight fade and damage, which will appear as a color loss when in reality its sun fade. Also, they are less likely to repel stains and body oils. Those can manifest as darker areas on the hide if the owner doesn't keep the piece cleaned and conditioned.

Which is right? Depends on three things 1) Your lifestyle 2) Your appreciation for finer goods 3) Your budget. If you are going to eat your meals on the sofa and treat the piece as a utility unit, then you will want a finished or painted leather. If you are willing to pay more for the pure aniline, have a lifestyle where food is eaten mainly at the dining table, and are willing to take steps to prevent UV damage from sunlight, then aniline pieces are tough to beat.

I have (18) pieces of leather furniture in my own home, as old as 30 years from three different makers. All are aniline, I don't own any finished leathers other than my office chair are work (which gets beat on). My kids were raised on aniline hide sofas and family room furniture with no ill effects. I clean and maintain my hides and though we have drinks and snacks on the sofas, we have a pretty tidy and clean home. I have solar window tint or Low E glass on all my windows.

Scratches: Everything will scratch. If you scratch through a finished hide them you get your paint out and repaint the area, just like you would on a car. With aniline, you rub a little leather conditioner in the scratch and that usually makes them fade. Pull up leathers are designed to show color bursts from pressure, which the un-informed refer to as "scratches". But a good pull-up leather is wonderful to own and develops its own unique patina, its something you appreciate as you get more into leathers.

Equestrian is a discontinued leather - your local dealer needs to pull their swatches and dispose of them.

Capri is wonderful, but expensive and fairly naked - not the best with kids, that's an adult ownership leather

Burnished leathers are very, very tough (Buckingham, Hyde Park, Imperial). They are pull-ups that have been glazed over, I have a lot of burnished hides in my own home.

Wade is very nice, almost a Capri at a GR 3 price.

Hope that helps

Thanks for the detailed response Duane. Very helpful recap for us! We're thinking we'll take the jump to an unprotected leather.

I picked up some more swatch samples yesterday and funny enough I picked a wrong one in the bunch that my wife in the Hyde Park series.
It looks like we're going to figure out something with the HP Cognac!

Now it's back to figuring out which model we'd like to go with...

1) Love the 4717 but wish it had the chaise. Ottoman might be an option but my wife is put off by the idea.
2) Your Way (Y31 + Y42)
3) York (NC303CLLAF + NC303RAF)

I'm not clear what exactly is the difference between the Your Way customization and the York. York seems fairly simple with clean lines. I'm assuming the York is a bit more economical?

I don't think the Sundance will ever get a Chaise added to it as it has a curved bow front edge to it, and you just don't see that in the industry. It would be very, very costly as a custom.

The York series is very simple, and doesn't have a lot of line definition to it. Your Way allows you to customize various features and its typically crisper in the design lines than the York series. Because of its simplicity, the York is usually one of the more price-friendly series.

Interesting! Thanks.

I checked out the Your Way in my local store today and the chaise was super narrow. Looking over the specs for all of the H&M sectionals with Chaises, I don't think they offer any model that has a wide chaise. There goes that idea with H&M. Still have the 4717 as an option, and also realized the 4845 (Envelop) as an option we like as well. I just caught the other thread stating that 4843 (the smaller Envelop) is being dropped, so hopefully that doesn't impact this one!

For reference, a B-Y 698 can have a 42" chaise width (31" seat width) vs. the H&M Tribeca with a 29" chaise width (24.5" seat width). My current chaise is 42/31 so the down-sizing was a big shock.

With that, our frame list is down to:
1) 4717 - We wish it had a little more style on the front to match the sides and back.
2) 4845 - Concern about the taller arm rest but think we could work it. I wish there were photos of this sofa on the forum but I've scoured every thread and only saw one from MRSSQRDAWAY which did not feature particularly flattering angles. She did post three pictures at some other point but I can't get the links to load (http://www.myfurnitureforum.com/atta...achmentid=4987)
3) B-Y 698 - Annoying to switch to B-Y as we'd have to go through the leather discovery process again, and you've stated it's not as good of a build...
4) Another brand entirely, though I think we'd be disappointed stepping away from H&M (something more modern would be probably 1.5x the cost and arguably lesser quality.)

Duane, you've given both of these pieces high praise on the forum. In your own words:

Sundance
"...Sundance sofa bolted into first place in sales for that company, it was the first sofa to come out in recent memory that had a gorgeous back, ideal for pieces floating in the room."
"Nothing looks as stylish and elegant as a Sundance sectional 'floating' in a room."
"The Sundance is all about style, with its beautifully finished side panels and fully tufted back, it really shines when not pushed up against a wall and is 'floated' out in the room. Few sofas look good from the back and sides, this one is probably even better when viewed from those angles then from the front. The sofa has a gentle curve to the front as well, so keep that in mind. This is a DEEP sofa, and takes a lot of floor space up front to back. It sits deeper than most and has a slightly more aggressive back lean than others."
"The lines fade off on the 110" Size, its loses something in lengthening it."
"Comfort: 3, steeper back angle that some and you do have to scoot back. Not for those short in the inseam."
--> We love the style of the back and sides. We wish the front was a bit more done up to match the sides/back. Someone suggested a way here which didn't work out but I still wonder if anything is possible.

Envelop
"Perhaps the most luxurious sofa I have ever tried out. It's a large piece, and it's pricey - but it is WONDERFUL."
"marvelously comfortable and quite stylish, but it has a limited 'high style' market because of the design aesthetics" - not sure what you meant at the end there, can you elaborate?
"I actually think the Envelop should only be sold in either Capri, Quintessence or Ricardo hides."
--> We actually started this journey looking at Chesterfields from CoCoCo so we love the idea of one. Can you comment on what makes the Envelop so lux & comfortable? The fact that it's not so deep is actually a pro?

Any thoughts or guiding advice?

Our use case: Sofa will be floating in our living room. We have a relatively contemporary design which will be offset by any of these sofas which are stylish but more formal. We're hoping the leather selection helps bring it in line with the room and we can design around that color scheme.

You can easily widen the chaise as a custom. That's not all that costly to do in Your Way, because its already a sectional and square-built, unlike the Sundance. Let's say you want the chaise 4" wider, or 6", or any measurement. What you also want to do is increase the other seating in the unit to have the same width so its visually balanced. For instance, let's use that 4" number for the chaise and say there are three additional seats to the side of the chaise. You increase the 4" for the chaise width + (3 x 4") for the other seating and you now have increased the total run by 16" overall. If you only increase that chaise width and leave the others standard, it looks a little odd (but I have customers do it). Myself, I would want it all balanced....if need be I will drop a seat on the run while increasing the others more to get to an acceptable overall length. H&M runs their own frame plant so they can build most anything - the trick is to keep the custom work affordable and avoid building something so complex it evolves into a whole new piece of furniture.

There is a wide difference between B-Y and H&M in stationary furniture, not quite as much gap in motion pieces. You will not get the tailoring and build level out of B-Y that you will from H&M. Also, B-Y will not do any customization whatsoever, its a different product than H&M but does come with a less expensive price tag as well.

# 4717: H&M could most likely run a row of button tufts on the front kick panel of you wanted them. Similar to what you see on the Kent Chesterfield.

# 4845: You nestle inside this sofa, don't really use the armrests per se. Yes, this is a high-style sofa, and were it not so large I'd have one on my showroom floor - its that good. However, my store is so small I try not to floor anything over 90", even a Sundance is hard to place in the showroom!

One option is to find out when an Envelop is coming off the production line at H&M and schedule a tour at their Hickory NC plant to try it out. There will always be a Sundance there as well, they are constantly being built. The tours are a treat - its one on one VIP. You would have to go within a couple days of the projected completion date as that sofa would belong to a customer and they will only hold it a few days, and it has to be Mon-Fri as well. However, if you are not too far from Hickory, then that's the way to compare and contrast as well as see the H&M difference.

If you can carry the size of the Envelop and it fits visually in the room, that would be my pick for comfort over a Sundance easily. But that's just me!

I'd love to go to the line to see it but my Q1 travel is already full up plus it would add several weeks to the process :(

Think we're going to go with the Envelop! Would you be able to provide me a quote (I assume the best way is to call you?)

I can share photos of the end product as well!