Restoration Hardware Sofa & Alteratives

Hello,

Hopefully I'm posting this in the right place. I'm looking to replace our current sofa, and my shopping efforts have taken me in a number of directions. I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed, so I'm looking for some advice. Apologies in advance for the long winded post to follow.

Ultimately, I'd like to buy from a known quantity (i.e. Hancock and Moore, American Leather, etc) but I have not found a design from those companies that matches what I'm looking for. What I'm looking for is all in a design I've been in love with for years, the Restoration Hardware Lancaster Sofa. It is a traditional, deep seating sofa with the exact cushion density/sink-in quality I'm looking for.

That said, I've been unsure about the quality from RH. Though they indicate hardwood, corner block re-inforced frames and 8-way hand tied suspension, quality Moore + Giles leather, etc ... I'm hesitant to trust a lifestyle brand like RH. Additionally, though this sofa has dropped in price around $2k in the last 3-4 years, it is still overpriced at around $3900 with tax+shipping.

As a possible alternative, I've found a number of companies that make this same design (whether they are admittedly knock-offs or work with the "original designer" is up for debate) but claim higher quality. There are many of these (BariLeatherFurniture, Casco Bay Furniture, and others), some that offer 8-way, some that offer the foam-core down encased cushions, but none yet that offer both.

The most promising company I've found so far in this design is LeatherGroups.com. The design is practically identical, the leather is the same Moore+Giles leather, the cushion construction is the same if not better, and the frame construction sounds solid. I've had a lot of back and forth with sales including additional pictures and detailed discussions about their products, and they sound like a reputable company, but there is little feedback out there on them which makes me hesitant to order. As mentioned above, I've yet to find the cushion and suspension combo I'd like, and these folks seem to use sinuous instead of 8-way (though I'm still waiting on confirmation on what their suspension is, though it is safe to say it likely isn't 8-way if it isn't stated as such).

Here's their page on the sofa:
https://www.leathergroups.com/cart/c...ofa-p-452.html

So, after all that .. I suppose I'm looking for some advice from those out there that know furniture construction and how to spot quality. How does this product from LeatherGroups.com strike you? There's a video there for the watching @ the bottom of the page. Would you feel confident ordering this sofa? We're talking about $1000 price difference vs. RH, although returning it if I'm unhappy with it would cost me half of those savings. RH would take theirs back w/o charge.

My concerns are:

- unknown reliability/business reputation of alternative company
- buying a sofa without sitting on it / inspecting it in person first
- sinuous vs. 8-way hand tied suspension

All and any feedback in this matter is welcomed.

If you do a search for Restoration Hardware or Lancaster you will get a few hits on threads where they've been discussed before. I think Duane has recommended a Bradington-Young sofa that was similar and the H&M Member sofa (but that doesn't sit as deep). You could try the Parisian too - not sure on depth of that one. And I think there was a Leathercraft model that he liked as well that looked similar to the Parisian. Try the search and see what you come up with. There's a wealth of information here, you just have to spend a little time digging for what you need. You'll most likely end up looking for hours like the rest of us. I started out looking at RH & Casco Bay and gave up after about a day. I think there's better stuff out there.

I don't think RH is the best quality or the worst, but depending on how long you want it to last and what your budget is, it might work for you. Good luck!

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Originally Posted by kmarcantel

Try the search and see what you come up with. There's a wealth of information here, you just have to spend a little time digging for what you need. You'll most likely end up looking for hours like the rest of us. I started out looking at RH & Casco Bay and gave up after about a day. I think there's better stuff out there.

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Hmm... I'll try the search again, I attempted such before and came up with nothing on RH at all.

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Originally Posted by kmarcantel

I don't think RH is the best quality or the worst, but depending on how long you want it to last and what your budget is, it might work for you. Good luck!

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Yeah, I don't think RH will be horrible by any means, I'm just confident that the price isn't justified. I also know the RH model is made in China now, which is of some concern.

If I go with this design, right now it is more likely to be the LeatherGroups version. But, as my OP clearly states, I have some roadblocks there right now too.

I did search again and found the previous discussions. Thanks.

Unfortunately, none of the suggested designs (and none I've seen shopping on my own) come close to the design of the Lancaster, in my opinion. This may mean I'm stuck with RH or LeatherGroups if I want to get that style and that seating depth in the same sofa. I'm really fond of the leather they both use, as well.

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Originally Posted by greenlander

The most promising company I've found so far in this design is LeatherGroups.com. The design is practically identical, the leather is the same Moore+Giles leather, the cushion construction is the same if not better, and the frame construction sounds solid. I've had a lot of back and forth with sales including additional pictures and detailed discussions about their products, and they sound like a reputable company, but there is little feedback out there on them which makes me hesitant to order. As mentioned above, I've yet to find the cushion and suspension combo I'd like, and these folks seem to use sinuous instead of 8-way (though I'm still waiting on confirmation on what their suspension is, though it is safe to say it likely isn't 8-way if it isn't stated as such).

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I watched the video, they seemed to be all about their cushions and its not very professional (watch Hancock and Moore's video if you want to see one done right). They don't tell us where this is made, other than the leather is Italian, and I can't see the frame, webbing, or springs on their site. My guess (and its just a guess) is that its mediocre. If a maker is using solid hardwood frames and 8-way hand-tied, you can be sure they will brag about it.

Here's the H&M variant. This is a BIG sofa that's heavy, and expensive relative to the price from the other companies. But with H&M you know its built right and for the long haul:

http://www.hancockandmoore.com/produ...productid=1494

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Originally Posted by drcollie

I watched the video, they seemed to be all about their cushions and its not very professional (watch Hancock and Moore's video if you want to see one done right). They don't tell us where this is made, other than the leather is Italian, and I can't see the frame, webbing, or springs on their site. My guess (and its just a guess) is that its mediocre. If a maker is using solid hardwood frames and 8-way hand-tied, you can be sure they will brag about it.

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Thanks for having a look. According to the specs, the frame is solid hardwood w/ corner block reinforcements. This is what one is looking for, no? The salesman indicated to me that it is made in the US at their production facility in CA.

Those cushions aren't a plus? That's a drag to hear. I'll have to check out the Hancock and Moore video. I was actually happy w/ what they show of their cushions, but of course, I have no idea what I'm talking about. That is also very similar to how the cushions are on the RH Lancaster.

The leather is Moore and Giles, which I thought was commonly known (and is an 80 year old Lynchburg, VA company).

I'm waiting on more info on the suspension and some photos. Hopefully the result is positive, although I'm definitely not expecting 8-way hand tied as we agree that would be stated quite clearly. I'll see if I can get some photos of the frame construction as well.

For $2900, if the frame is solid and the suspension turns out to be good (although not hand tied), is that quality representative of price? Or is this likely to turn out to be a poor decision?

Had a look at the H&M model. It's hard to visualize a comparison between that and the Lancaster given the leather difference and nail/tack trimming (or whatever they are properly called). Measurements look similar though. What this model price at (feel free to PM if that is how you commonly give prices).

Thanks again for your reply.

Solid Hardwood Frame is Good!

Cushions are standard production units, neither exceptional or poor quality. Just average.

Moore and Giles is just a leather supplier, all hides are imported as there are no USA tanneries (all closed in 2008). So that name doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

8-Way Hand-tied is the gold standard. And the most expensive to produce.

Value for $ 2,900? I can't really say unless I had a look at that sofa up close and personal. Sorry.

H&M Settlement will not be quite double the price of that one. So its considerably more dollars, but its high premium, whereas this one is mid-level from what i can see. Frankly, with that huge inside depth I'd want a super good suspension, otherwise a sofa like that will be pocketing and puddling within the first couple of years. $ 3K is no bargain if the sofa is unusable after a few years....it all depends on the spring system and how they install the supports.

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Originally Posted by greenlander

Thanks for having a look. According to the specs, the frame is solid hardwood w/ corner block reinforcements. This is what one is looking for, no? The salesman indicated to me that it is made in the US at their production facility in CA.

Those cushions aren't a plus? That's a drag to hear. I'll have to check out the Hancock and Moore video. I was actually happy w/ what they show of their cushions, but of course, I have no idea what I'm talking about. That is also very similar to how the cushions are on the RH Lancaster.

The leather is Moore and Giles, which I thought was commonly known (and is an 80 year old Lynchburg, VA company).

I'm waiting on more info on the suspension and some photos. Hopefully the result is positive, although I'm definitely not expecting 8-way hand tied as we agree that would be stated quite clearly. I'll see if I can get some photos of the frame construction as well.

For $2900, if the frame is solid and the suspension turns out to be good (although not hand tied), is that quality representative of price? Or is this likely to turn out to be a poor decision?

Had a look at the H&M model. It's hard to visualize a comparison between that and the Lancaster given the leather difference and nail/tack trimming (or whatever they are properly called). Measurements look similar though. What this model price at (feel free to PM if that is how you commonly give prices).

Thanks again for your reply.

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Hmm.. that is considerably more for the H&M. Not to mention it would be sight unseen as I can't imagine I'm going to find that sofa in a comparable antique hand-rubbed style brown leather finish anywhere nearby, considering the unlikelihood that I could even find that sofa on display anywhere. So we're talking about a big, expensive, custom order that is mine even if I don't like it, eh?

Boy, this isn't easy. :)

Can you point me to the H&M video of their cushion construction you referred to? I can't find it on their website.

Pretty much, yeah! What can I say? Probably 3/4's of the folks on this forum bought that way!

The video is right on the home page at www.hancockandmoore.com. Says "VIEW VIDEO" ..... or click this link:

http://www.hancockandmoore.com/video.asp

Oh, and Moore & Giles just says that the leather is from a 150 year old Italian tannery, along with some sales pitchy stuff. They do, however, offer a PDF will full specs on the leather (i.e. stats on thickness and performance), but it's all greek to me. ;)

So, I further inquired about the LG version of the RH Lancaster. Specifically, I was inquiring whether the frame was 100% solid hardwood, as I've read that if a certain percentage is hardwood (leaving the rest to MDF/what have you), furniture makers can say "solid hardwood frame". Additionally, since they specify no-sag suspension and not 8-way, I inquired about whether it was sinuous/etc as well as requesting photos of frame joints and suspension. As has been the case thus far, LG has been very responsive.

Here are my results, along with my thoughts. Hopefully others in my position can learn from the results and feedback from others on the forum (especially Duane, of course) in regards to them.

- The photos were not available off hand, and are being requested from the factory. This is good that it is being pursued, but I was fairly surprised this wasn't readily available.
- The default suspension is sinuous, and this is a choice made by the factory. LG did however offer to upgrade/switch to 8-way hand tied for no additional charge, which I found impressive. I followed up asking whether all 8 points are knotted or just looped, still waiting on that. I was however surprised by their contention that the sinuous suspension offered better support for this sofa in their opinion because of it being "heavier gauge and firmer", stating that the 8 way is "more flexible and springier" but ultimately leaving the choice up to me. I think it is great that they're willing to offer the 8 way, but find the default choice of sinuous suprising considering what I've read about the superiority of 8 way.
- LG confirmed 100% hardwood, but forthcomingly offered up the info that "most manufacturers do not use only hardwood boards, but also incorporate in hardwood laminates (furniture plywood) into specific vertical spans for more strength" because "they use this in key vertical spans to create more torsional strength and just more strength in general." I'd love some help evaluating the veracity of these statements, as I don't really know the reality myself. I've followed up requesting info on whether the frame is double-doweled + glued + screwed. Will post when I find out.

If all this ends up being good news (as it sounds to me so far), I'm feeling somewhat more confident about this sofa being a value. I hope to find out that this is a quality product offered at a fair price.

Interesting. They will simply change the spring system like that at no charge? I'm rather amazed since 1) 8-way Hand Tied is considerably more expensive to do, and 2) They have to do some engineering to retrofit. Its more than just a matter of swapping spring systems out. To put it another way, lets say a car only comes standard with a manual transmission, but you want an automatic. The car maker says "no problem, we'll put an auto trans in there for you at no extra charge".

And I am amused but their comment on 'more strength' from plywood. I think you can answer that one for yourself at Home Depot. Get a solid board and a piece of plywood (any size thickness) of the same approximate size and see which has more flex and torsional strength. Answer" Solid Lumber. That's one of the main issues with Plywood it has no torsional strength and flexes. Manufacturers use it in for a few reasons 1) its less costly 2) easier to run on a CNC machine 3) Complex curves are easier to cut.

A sinuous spring setup is done in an boxed arc and fastened to the wood frame. Commonly used in seat backs that don't get the high weight loading that seating areas get, I'd be concerned about the tension in these spring sagging in a few years of use, physics alone would say that would be the tendency. You sit atop the arc of the springs, pushing down on them. Over a long span such as that sofa, it would give me pause. Buy I'm just speculating on their build, thats all.

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Originally Posted by drcollie

Interesting. They will simply change the spring system like that at no charge? I'm rather amazed since 1) 8-way Hand Tied is considerably more expensive to do, and 2) They have to do some engineering to retrofit. Its more than just a matter of swapping spring systems out. To put it another way, lets say a car only comes standard with a manual transmission, but you want an automatic. The car maker says "no problem, we'll put an auto trans in there for you at no extra charge".

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Not that I don't get the spirit of what you're saying, but isn't comparing swapping sofa suspensions to swapping car transmissions a bit of an over-generalization? I don't think we're talking about apples and apples here. :)

Moreover, if the eight-way is of the drop in variety (which I've read isn't optimal but still perfectly okay), wouldn't fastening a drop-in sinuous suspension to the frame be similar to fastening a drop-in 8-way?

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Originally Posted by drcollie

And I am amused but their comment on 'more strength' from plywood. I think you can answer that one for yourself at Home Depot. Get a solid board and a piece of plywood (any size thickness) of the same approximate size and see which has more flex and torsional strength. Answer" Solid Lumber. That's one of the main issues with Plywood it has no torsional strength and flexes. Manufacturers use it in for a few reasons 1) its less costly 2) easier to run on a CNC machine 3) Complex curves are easier to cut.

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Actually, I did some research and according to several sources online, their contention is correct. Additionally, these sources are talking about standard plywood, not hardwood plywood (which would be even stronger than standard plywood).

Solid wood is stronger than fiberboard, but not as strong as plywood or oriented strand board. - wikipedia (unreferenced, though)

One of the most versatile sheet goods, plywood is used to construct everything from fine furniture to sheathing and sub-floors. It is produced in large standard sizes that have increased efficiency in the construction industry and is both stronger and cheaper than solid wood. It is more resistive to shrinking, twisting, warping and cracking ... - Home Depot

... plywood is much less likely to expand or shrink based on moisture in the environment, and the alternating construction creates a board that is much stronger in each direction than a similarly sized board cut from a single tree. - woodworking.about.com

Continued reading turned up repeated sources highlighting plywood's torsional and general strength vs. solid wood because of the way plywood is constructed (alternating direction wood fiber in the sheets).

Learn something new every day, eh?

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Originally Posted by drcollie

A sinuous spring setup is done in an boxed arc and fastened to the wood frame. Commonly used in seat backs that don't get the high weight loading that seating areas get, I'd be concerned about the tension in these spring sagging in a few years of use, physics alone would say that would be the tendency. You sit atop the arc of the springs, pushing down on them. Over a long span such as that sofa, it would give me pause. Buy I'm just speculating on their build, thats all.

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Your logic sounds solid to me. I can't see how a sinuous suspension could hold up on that length and depth as well as an 8-way, unless there are some sort of re-inforcements throughout the span of the frame/suspension. Admittedly, I'm no furniture builder and have no idea how this thing is put together, which is why I'm hoping for more pictures.

I suppose you can bolt any spring system into a frame, that's all Sleeper sofas are, for example....If you're comfortable with that, then like they say "You pays your money, you takes your choice!"

Here's the thing with plywood : 1) It disintegrates when it gets wet (not much an issue in a leather sofa, granted); and 2) It lacks torsional stiffness. In a sofa frame, that means it racks. The stiffest frames are made of hardwood, and a good foundation means better function of the springs. That doesn't mean that the Engineered Plywood frame is bad - a lot of makers use it. But its a cost savings measure, that's the major reason they do.

There are only two ways to reduce the cost of building quality upholstery. One is to remove material or substitute it for lesser product, and the second is to reduce labor costs. All these makers know the RIGHT way to build something, but they must determine what segment of the market they want to service. Hancock and Moore is the 800 lb Gorilla of the premium leather upholstery market, for example and their sofa retails for $ 3,000 (example). Its built right and with no shortcuts. Acme Furniture wants to build a similar sofa, but their management doesn't want to go head-to-head with H&M for a variety of reasons, and decides they want to sell their sofa for $ 2,000 retail. So how do they maintain their profit margin on a lower priced sofa? Well, they do that by using plywood frames, and no-sag springs for starters, and then hire $ 12 an hour workers instead of the $ 20 a hour higher skilled ones at H&M. Acme won't say their sofa is as good as H&M's because everyone in the trade knows its not - but its more price-friendly and thats their goal, to capture that $ 2K customer who is not going to spend $ 3K on a sofa. And of course, there's also a guy that is targeting Acme and wants to sell his for $ 1,000 retail as well, and that sofa is out there as well. Everything works well when its new, the acid test is the performance at the 5 year mark, and the 10 year mark, etc....performance over time is the real measure of a quality piece.

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Originally Posted by drcollie

I suppose you can bolt any spring system into a frame, that's all Sleeper sofas are, for example....If you're comfortable with that, then like they say "You pays your money, you takes your choice!"

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I thought I had read another thread elsewhere on this forum where you indicated that Bradington Young uses drop-in eight way suspensions and defended its reliability? Did I misread/misunderstand?

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Originally Posted by drcollie

2) It lacks torsional stiffness. In a sofa frame, that means it racks.

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See, this is where I'm finding information to the contrary. Setting aside a kid's science fair project that I found online, every single other resource I've consulted has indicated that the torsional stiffness of modern plywood is greater than that of solid wood. I understand you have many years of experience telling you otherwise, and I'm inclined to trust your experience. Any idea why I'm finding so much evidence to contradict your claim?

B-Y uses Drop-in grids and leather secondary splits on its ENVISION Series, not its mainstream leather product that is sold under the Bradington Young brand name. I do not carry the ENVISON series and have no plans to.

As to the torsional stiffness of plywood (twisting movement when used as a frame) I don't have an engineering background to make the proof, but if it were superior construction (we already know it costs less), ask yourself why companies like H&M and Leathercraft and Classic Leather haven't fully converted to it? It would be far less costly for them. I handle plenty of both types of frames in my store, and I can tell you without reservation that the plywood frames have considerably more flex in them when being moved and delivered to customers homes.

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Originally Posted by drcollie

As to the torsional stiffness of plywood (twisting movement when used as a frame) I don't have an engineering background to make the proof, but if it were superior construction (we already know it costs less), ask yourself why companies like H&M and Leathercraft and Classic Leather haven't fully converted to it? It would be far less costly for them. I handle plenty of both types of frames in my store, and I can tell you without reservation that the plywood frames have considerably more flex in them when being moved and delivered to customers homes.

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Duane -- good points, but I'm wondering if there's not more behind the choice of hardwood over furniture grade plywood in frame choices. I've really taken an interest in this (as you've noticed), and have continued to research. Admittedly, the argument made by the document I'll link in a moment is a tough one to stack up against the raw cost argument, but it is yet another document that indicates that torsional stiffness and overall strength is superior in plywood vs. solid wood. At the very least, it should be more food for thought in this debate.

Here's a quote from it, full document linked.

If a standard hardwood upholstered frame is built as a case goods frame, once the glue joint is
cracked, the frame is in failure. Once a hidden knot is cracked, the frame is in failure. If the
hardwood is ‘wind shook’, and no one finds it, the frame will be in failure if dynamically loaded.
Once in failure, the dowels will break, the screws will work out, and the frame will start to
squeak, then get loose. The arm will wiggle, etc.

If you don’t believe this, I suggest you have a true case goods type hardwood frame made, then
have a true engineered plywood frame made to identical specifications. Take them to a reputable
testing lab and have both tested to destruction. I have found the dynamic loaded case good type
upholstery frame will fail between 15 and 20,000 cycles. The testing lab will turn the testing
machine off at 100,000 cycles and call it a day for a well engineered plywood frame..

Full document here: (note, I've yet to determine the source of this document, but it seems to be a document meant for and circulated to those on the inside of the furniture industry).

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...hz6Otw22ebmVZg

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Originally Posted by greenlander

Here's a quote from it, full document linked.

[I][b]If a standard hardwood upholstered frame is built as a case goods frame, once the glue joint is
cracked, the frame is in failure. Once a hidden knot is cracked, the frame is in failure.

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Hidden knot? Good manufacturers probably xray/scan the wood and discard any knotted wood.
Glue joint cracked? What's plywood made of? It's all glued together. Sometimes with lots of formaldehyde containing glue.

The author above says he's found the frame fails after 15-20000 cycles. Later in his article, he says something along the lines of we need to do the tests to get the word out about plywood. So have they done the tests or not? Is this article from an unbiased source. What about the disadvantages of plywood? Do they test stress in all directions or just perpendicular to the piece of plywood. In the real world, stress is not in a single direction. Sofas get pushed, turned, and pulled. Why are homes not framed with plywood?

How long does plywood hold up or last? What happens to plywood when it's exposed to excessive moisture and heat? Does hardwood delaminate? If plywood delams, can it be repaired? These are all relevant questions.

For case goods, what happens when you chip that veneer? Can it be repaired or do you live with the exposed plywood?

Even if they can prove plywood is stronger (all I saw was statements without any independent tests), I'll still choose a hardwood frame. In my opinion, there is less potential for toxic fumes, just wood. Quality hardwood has passed the test of time and there are very old intact furniture pieces around. True, it takes more skill and costs more to use hardwood. An unskilled manufacturer using hardwood probably makes a worse product than using plywood. I'd like to hear what H&M and Leathercraft have to say about not using plywood if it really is stronger. I suspect there is more to the story.

First, I think that at a basic level Duane is correct about plywood. If I go to Home Depot and compare the flex of a piece of solid hardwood to a piece of equally thick plywood, I will find the plywood to be easier to bend and flex. But at the same time if I apply enough force to bend or flex the hardwood it will split or fracture. The hardwood will also be less dimensionally stable, although if that were the end of the story we would build everything with MDF. But that's not the end of the story. Thicker boards and thicker plywood are both more rigid. Thinner boards? If I want to bend plywood around a curved frame, I can select a grade and thickness that will bend. If I want to bend hardwood in a similar fashion, I'll be steaming it first and hoping it doesn't split.

If you go with thick enough, quality plywood, the article you link offers valid points. You are much less likely to encounter a hidden defect that causes the wood to fail. (This goes both ways. Even softwood, if thick enough, is difficult to break - if you don't believe me, grab a 2x4 and bend or twist it until it breaks at a knot hole. If you somehow manage that, try a 4x4.) So yes, I do believe it's possible for a furniture maker to build a solid frame for a sofa using plywood for the vertical spans.

That said, a recent comment from a cabinetmaker comes to mind:

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Originally Posted by Cutting Corners

The difficulty arises when people decide to go beyond the practical and begin cutting into the quality of the cabinets themselves. So, a full 3/4″ back becomes a 1/2″ back becomes a 1/4″ back, each reduction being sold on the basis of being “every bit as good.” Screws are replaced with nails and then staples.

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I'm also reminded of a custom piece of furniture my parents had made. Not even close to John Buchanan's work, but quite solid. The drawers are dovetailed, which would be great if they weren't plywood. Dovetailing plywood increases the risk of delamination and tear-out. A tongue and rabbet joint would be more sensible - but conversely that's a joint you would not use with solid wood.

The point is, it's great to say "plywood can be superior" or "dovetail joints are a mark of quality", but you need to understand the context. And you further need to understand how your manufacturer translates that theory into reality. If the furniture frame would be solid as a rock with 3/4" plywood for vertical spans, but they're using 1/4" plywood because it's a lot cheaper, you're going to see the flex that Duane has observed. I have a comparatively inexpensive sofa in my living room that has a lot of plywood in it, but that has not given it special resistance to the "dynamic load" imposed by my five-year-old - because the furniture maker cut corners with the frame. As with Duane's experience, it had more flex from day one than any of my H&M pieces.

Thanks to everyone for their responses above regarding the use of plywood in frames. My contention was that it wasn't safe to simply say that the use of plywood is a negative, as my research indicated it can in fact be a positive. I think the take home message is that craftsmanship is obviously the most important factor in play. Whether that craftsman's choice of material speaks about their work is another debate entirely.

In any event, I've heard back from the folks at LeatherGroups in response to my questions about the suspension and request for frame construction photos. As it turns out, my assumption on the 8-way hand tied upgrade being drop-in was incorrect, this is done the traditional way -- frame attached and each point tied, no looping shortcuts.

Following are frame pictures. As it turns out, LG indicates that furniture plywood is used only on the arms for shaping. I'd welcome opinions on the construction shown. It looks quality to me, but I'm not educated on these matters. I've compared it to other frame construction pictures I've found at it looks comparable. My confidence is building.

If not linked elsewhere in the thread, this is the sofa in it's finished form:
https://www.leathergroups.com/cart/c...ofa-p-452.html

In my opinion, Engineered plywood is never a plus (unless you like having out-gassing of chemicals and glues in your home which is what binds the chips and sawdust and particles together) and enjoy the lack of rigidity of a plywood frame.

That frame looks good. Go for it.

Duane,

Glad to hear you like the looks of that frame. That further builds my confidence.

All the discussion about plywood in a vertical span seems to have been moot (in this case anyway), as the plywood is only on the arms. Although in this additional picture it looks like it might be across the front and side floor span as well. Hard to tell.

I also realized I forgot to attach one photo, I've attached it here.

Pending any other questions on my part or feedback contrary to yours on the frame photos, I think we're going to proceed. Thanks again to everyone for their thoughtful feedback throughout the thread.

Greenlander, did you ever purchase the Lancaster lookalike from LeatherGroup? I am also looking for a similar sofa at a reasonable price. I am trying to figure out why you liked the Leather Group better than Casco Bay? They offer more info about the quality of their frames, suspension system and leather. (http://cascobayfurniture.com/pages.php?pID=9&CDpath=0) Before I purchase I will ask them to send some build shots as well.

Has anyone else had any experience with Casco Bay? I am sure there is better furniture out there, but to be honest, $3k for a sofa is on the top end of my budget as it is... so just looking for the best value in that range in a style that I like. Restoration hardware is having a 20% sale at this time and I was about to pull the trigger, but if I can get the same look with better quality, made in USA and $600 cheaper, seems like the way to go...

I went through this whole process and spent quite a bit of time on it. I considered Casco Bay as well, but ultimately decided to go with LeatherGroups for a couple of reasons.

While Casco seemed pretty good, If I'm going to buy furniture like this over the internet, I like to know who I'm dealing with. I did some research on Casco and when searching their address, I found it to be the address of a shipping company, with no business named Casco Bay doing business there:

Google this: (The address is the same address supplied on Casco's website as their address.)
Peace Transport Inc
603 Salem Street, Thomasville, NC 27360-2808

Seemed a little weird to me, and when I did a reverse lookup on their phone #, it shows to be a cell phone?

I'm not saying they aren't a legitimate business, but if they are, I couldn't verify them through any of the public records. When I asked them about it their answer was: "You won't find us in the BBB because we haven't had any complaints yet" I didn't ask about that, but, ok.

As I mentioned, they're probably decent enough, but I'm a little uneasy handing my credit card over on a $8k purchase when I can't tell who I'm doing business with.

The guy at Casco was helpful, but so was LeatherGroups.com and they gave me tons of extra information and assistance, just like they did with the Greenlander. In my case I was customizing the dimensions and adding some nail head trim. Overall I just felt like I could tell the product was good, but I think for me it all boiled down to the fact that I could tell who I was doing business with. No offense to the guy at Casco. Maybe you could work on providing your customers with more good info so customers could feel more comfortable about doing business with you.

Glad to be through with this process and I'm just happy I'll still get to catch some of the rest of the NFL season sitting on my new sectional! Go Eagles and thanks to everyone on this forum for the help.

Hi, I have some of the same questions / issues with LeatherGoods. I'm looking at the Braxton sectional which is roughly 3K less than the Restoration Hardware version. They look exactly the same, and apparently they get the Brompton Cocoa from the same leather producer in Italy. Did anybody buy a product from LeatherGoods.com on this thread. Any feedback?

Did any of you buy a Lancaster sofa?

Yes, my wife and I are in the exact same situation right now. Has anyone bought from Leather Goods vs. RH? I would love to hear any reviews. Thanks!

bump

You're not likely to find very many Restoration Hardware customers here.

There are thousands of brands in the North American furniture market - its impossible to have detailed knowledge of all of them, even for the most enthusiastic furniture connoisseur. Your best bet is to research the forum and LEARN what makes a good piece of furniture then use your eyes and hands and assess for yourself. With a little training and knowledge, you'd be surprised how quickly you can separate the wheat from the chaffe.

Okay, I'm SO confused. RH is having a sale right now and the Lancaster in the 84 inch wide and 43 inch deep is 3400 dollars.

Here are the specs on the build. I want it in the "Glove" which is a semi anniline from South America. I am wondering what is wrong with this sofa? I'm not sure about the spring suspension and that's the only thing since it is saying it is kiln dried hardwood frame and the rest of the build looks okay. For that money what can I get that is better than this. There is fifteen percent off on this sofa right now....If I took it in the regular Brompton Cocoa it would be even less as I chose a different color. Reason being they don't have DARK Brompton Cocoa up there and it looks reddish brown to me and lighter than what I really wanted so looked at "Glove" instead. However, I did not order yet. Opinions welcome. I'm really wanting to get a sofa ordered and get a build going. Btw, I am in Canada now so that's where it needs to ship to. RH has a flat rate of 345.00. ONE OTHER consideration. Duties are waived if the sofa is made in the U.S.A. so if it's made in China I'm going to be looking at a higher price and likely will try to find something else.

Also, the build on the Kensington which I really like is the same as this sofa but, it's outrageously priced for what it is. No way, I'm not paying six thousand plus tax for a sofa when I have a dog and teenagers! Not without it being Hancock and Moore I'm not..
FEATURES
Exceptionally luxurious at nearly 4 feet deep, Lancaster features down-blend cushions
and is available in 11 rich, premium leathers. Italian Brompton Cocoa leather – Lancaster’s
stocked leather – is a natural material with inherent variations in color and texture that
make each piece unique.
• Available in 11 premium leathers and 56 stain-resistant fabrics
• Available in 43” and 49” depths
• Sofa available in 6 lengths
• Hardwood feet in brown oak finish
• Kiln-dried hardwood, double-doweled frame
• 8-way hand-tied spring suspension for superior durability, comfort and quality
• Corner-blocked joinery
• Cushions are backed in plush fabric which allows cushions to breathe for sink-in comfort;
top portion of each back cushion is backed in leather
• Seat cushions have down-blend fill (feather and down wrapped around a 4½” foam core)
• Coordinating back cushions are a blend of feather, down and polyfiber

I'd say if you've tried the sofa out and are happy with the way it sits and the hand of the leather then go for it. I don't think you have to be concerned about the build quality, I've seen and sat in that model not too long ago at RH and while its not a sofa I would personally buy based on the feel of the piece to me - I didn't see any thing that concerned me or gave me pause about the way it was made. Shipping is about right to Canada at $ 345, but you will still have customs / brokerage fees and GST tax on top of that amount as I'm sure you know. I ship quite a bit into Canada and even though the product is USA-made the additional fees (other than the shipping itself) to go into Canada do add up.

That sofa sits very deep. Make sure that deep sit is what you want is my only word of caution. Let us know how it goes!

Thank you so much for the quick replies. I am looking at other alternatives still as I'm nervous spending this much without being assured of build quality. I have looked at Braddington Young but, also have been reading these forums. It seems they aren't as great as they used to be? I"d LOVE Hancock and Moore and maaaybe would stretch that far. I still have some looking around to do.

As far as customs goes...if the piece is made in the USA some fees i.e. import type taxes are waived now due to the cross border agreement so I wouldn't have those if I don't choose this sofa. However, I would have that shipping and HST issue. That would happen ANYWAY. Even if I go into a store here and order it, then it's most likely imported and most likely those costs are passed on to me.

Very deep? I am in Kingston, Ontario. There is no RH here but, there is one in Toronto. I haven't sat in this exact sofa...I'm still shopping as I said. I'm just worried these days about so many things costing what they do and then it ends up they are part MDF or some other low quality made in China. I'm looking at what you offer as well as I see you do ship here. I'm used to having things shipped here. I am American and my whole family are in the southern states so I am constantly having things sent up here! haha.

Aside from the sofa I can't get Rotel up here and need cases shipped to me. haha!

I'd not be too concerned about Restoration Hardware build quality - if you were talking Pottery Barn it would be a different story. Mitchell Gold used to build the RH product, and they still may, but I'm not positive about that. And Mitchell Gold turns out a decent product. Bradington Young builds a decent piece as well - but its not Hancock and Moore (neither is RH).

Correct, NAFTA eliminates import taxes, but that doesn't get you around customs and brokerage fees, nor that painfully high tax rate you have in Canada. Here's a sample of an order I'm doing for a customer in Canada right now that is going into Ontario:

310lbs. Value $ 8,046 (USD)
Freight: $ 173.20
(FSC) : $ 37.93
Total: $ 211.13 CDN / $ 211.69 USD

Customs Estimate:
$ 8,046.00 CDN
$ 1,045.98 (HST)
$ 50.00 Handling
$ 6.50 (HST)
Total: $ 1,102.48 CDN

And that's a curbside drop, in-home delivery is additional

Kingston to Toronto is not all that far (my wife is from Madoc, Ontario)...make the drive and go try one out. See if you like the big depth and lower seat height of that piece before you commit to buy. Given reasonable care, that's a 20-year + investment so burn a day and go check it out in person is my recommendation.

Your wife is from Madoc? Oh! We lived out in Lyndhurst for quite a while but, my husband now works at Queen's U. and that was a killer r/t. drive in winter.

I see what you mean. Yes, that HST is extremely high. 15 percent combined tax..meh!

I wouldn't buy from PB. That's almost as bad as Ikea. It's not even cheaper either. You end up buying a new sofa every four years or less.

I will be in touch with you probably. There were several Bradington Young sofas I liked. It's too bad H and M. are so high...over four thousand is getting a little rich for me on a sofa. Anyway, thanks for your input the depth on that RH concerns me a bit so yes, I'll take a little jaunt to T.O.

any updates on this? has anyone purchased the Lancaster or any of the knock offs? If so, can we get reviews?

Just wanted to chime in with my experience with leathergroups.com. Super responsive, they were the original manufacturers of the Maxwell. They offered a far wider range of leathers than RH (including anything that Moore and Giles sells), though they didn't have the exact same leather as RH on a few options. But in the end I got something great, they did 8-way hand tied and they were having a sale on 5-year warranty.

Jerry was super responsive. My only quibble would be it took a bit longer than expected and I was given a couple ETAs that ended up being inaccurate by a week or two. But overall, for the price and quality, I'm real happy.