I'm done with Flexsteel

I'm going to retire my Flexsteel dealership.

The stuff from China they have is CRAP. I was taking one apart yesterday (to move upstairs in my showroom) and I really started to look hard at the interior of it. If they could make this any cheaper I don't know how.....they actually use Poster Board (like you use in school projects), cover it with the cheapest closed cell foam you can imagine (glued on) then cover that with a leather hide. That's the entire back of the Chinese made Latitudes recliner!

I found that poster board used all inside the piece, and cheap foam used all over it. That's disgusting to pass that off to a consumer. When that paper poster board absorbs some humidity over time, it will simply degrade and lose what little rigidity it has. I don't want to sell that in my store.

I know, I know, I have some misguided ethics where I can't sell what I don't believe in, like I take everything personally. Bad for business, but good for sleeping through the night. I effectively cut myself off from those customers that will not, or can not buy in the quality product price tiers however, so that's not a good thing.

The Chinese-made Flexsteel Leather Recliner sells for $ 879. The Hancock and Moore that is made in the USA of the right stuff for twice that and it will last 4 x as long. Even though $ 879 seems like a lot to some, it can't buy a decent leather recliner. I fight that battle every day with almost every customer trying to convince them to spend a bit more and get something worth having.

Cheap furniture is just cheap, nothing else.

Next trip through here that the Flexsteel Rep makes I'm going to have him pick up the catalogs and samples and take me off the website as an Authorized Dealer. I just can't tolerate the cheapness of Flexsteel construction. I'm know I'm bucking the trend in not selling inexpensive furniture but and will lose those sales to another dealers but I just can't do it in good conscience.

Duane

Good for you! I truly wish that we had a furniture showroom around here that I could trust to only sell top-quality (and made in the USA) products.

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Originally Posted by Sarah

Good for you! I truly wish that we had a furniture showroom around here that I could trust to only sell top-quality (and made in the USA) products.

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Ahh...well, truth be told Sarah, most stores can't stay in business using that model, the American public went to a Wal-Mart mentality a long time ago (the fact that you are even using the furniture forum is proof that you are not mainstream when looking for furniture). I have a unique store in that my customers rely on my expertise to give them lasting products and rely on my word when buying. I'm there six days a week and depend on loyalty from my customers to keep my business going. An unhappy customer will never return, of course. So one way to prevent that unhappiness is to never sell junk in a box, and though I hear whispers of couples in the store say "its so expensive in here" I am confident that the items I carry will meet anyones test of durabilty and quality over time.

Consumer pressure has been so intense on manufacturers to deliver products to a given price point that most gave in many years ago. So what they do now is make the outside look as expensive and solid as can they can, and build the interiors of the cheapest materials they can locate. Then they cut back the warranties, and with good reason - because the insides will disintegrate not long after the warranties expire. To be fair, its not just Flexsteel doing it, but virtually all companies rolling out stock with MADE IN CHINA on the outside of the box.

The people that run these companies are Americans just as we are, and hate to go down that road as well - but they have been forced to do so by consumer pressures. The average wage of the furniture worker in China is 50 cents an hour. In North Carolina its $ 18 an hour.

A few companies have held the line. Some work to the highest standard and those are the ones I like best. Of course, when I tell someone that the leather sofa from that premium company is $ 3,000, I see eyes roll and they say "Well at Macy's I can get a Natuzzi for half that". From the outside, they look the same, don't they? Now if they'll give me half an hour in the store and are willing to learn, I'll explain the differences to them and then if they want the Made In China piece - more power to them. At least now they have made an informed decision.

Sorry to go on a rant, but this is one of my little HOT buttons :mad:, and I've been to the American factories and seen the pride in workmanship, the dedication to a product well-made, and met the workers who make the good furniture. Its worth every penny, and will reward the purchaser with so many more years of good service that for me its a no-brainer on what to buy. In my own home there is nothing made overseas other than some accessories. All my furniture is Made in the USA and will continue to be so (small American flag waving) ....rotf

Duane

I could not agree more about buying USA manufactured products. I find it perplexing that the worker complaining that his or her job has been outsourced to China or India is the same one who raves about the buys at WalMart or the discount furniture store, or the internet virtual store.
Don't get me wrong comsumers should look at price as a consideration in their purchases, but other factors need to also be considered including value, service, loyalty and origin.
Your point about buying quality USA manufactured products is becoming increasingly difficult to do for a number of reasons. First identification of country of origin is not always easy, components and subassemblies can have multitude of nationalities. US sources don't even exist for many products. Craftsmenship has all but disappeared in the furniture industry. With a world economy, forces will tend to balance standards of living across international boundaries. This does not bode well for the good old USA.
Hard work doe not cut it when 1 billion Chinese can overwhelm the demand for cheap labor in labor intensive manufacturing. This coupled with the extremely high corporate tax rate in the USA gives multinational manufacturing companies additional incentive to move operations offshore.

Unfortunately my friend I don't believe there is going to be any answers for the USA that will be very popular. We will in all likelihood continue down this slippery slope to an end of our economic dominence in the world as we know it.:(:(

I don't think your ethics are misplaced at all, it is everyone else's that are. I suggest when the Flexsteel rep shows up you show him the insides of his merchandise as well as having him take the catalogs etc.

bought my 2 flexsteel chairs in August 2010, took ownership of them in October 2010.
Last week one of the recline assemblies seized and the other was getting close. Had the furniture repair guy come out and he agreed that ever since they moved their operations to China, the quality has gone WAY down and that he repairs these chairs often. My brother in law has 2 chairs from circa-2005, and they are tough as nails. Also, they don't squeak when you sit in them, etc. they have never had problems with them.
The repair guy knew exactly what was wrong before he showed up. We flipped the chair over and of course the mechanism has dug into the wood (that explains the wood falling from underneath our chairs).
Now I don't mind stuff going over to China (*I believe* that our nation has benefited from the fact that we don't make cell phones, linen, etc anymore). But when the quality drops off that much, it is rather problematic.
I hope the chairs are better than when they were delivered after the repairs.

Turns out that buying from China is more expensive after all, if you include headaches, repair costs, and replacement costs of some piece of furniture that would have been a lifetime purchase, if it was US made.

Wish I had researched Flexsteel better than I did before buying. I usually spend days searching for reviews and complaints. I definitely did not stumble across this forum or the gardenweb before plunging into the abyss. Yes, a little hyperbole can go a long way. I actually got thrown off while shopping in the store - I went for the Grandview line but found it was way too small for my height. My legs were hanging off the thing when reclined and my head was thrown back due to low rear seat cushion height so I started to consider other Flexsteel models and landed on the Latitude due to the really soft leather and "cushions". So, I'm now another victim of the Flexsteel myth. Even if their USA furniture is somewhat better - the fact they put their name behind such terrible junk as Latitude (China) disqualifies them in my book. Faithful in a little - faithful in a lot . . . Spent over $5,500 for a power loveseat w/ console, sofa and recliner and a day after delivery a motion component on the first piece delivered is broken. The authorized and trained Flexsteel repair person just left after replacing a sheared off pressed-on fastener with a non-manufacturer bolt / washer / nut he had in his car. I thought one of the neighbors was walking up to the door when he arrived - didn't expect someone in an old white undershirt and hole-y jeans. Turns out he is a local handyman that rigs things for Flexsteel and other local stores when they break. He indicated the retail store communicated the wrong phone numbers to him for my repair request - even showed me the text. He would have shown up the day after I called in the repair had the contact info been right. He said the store cursed him and hung up when he called to tell them they had given out the wrong info. I think that used car lot next door may be theirs too. Nice guy and was honest about the Flexsteel construction quality. He related that he has had Hancock and Moore at home for 25 years - need anything more be said? I definitely added his contact info into my phone - I'm sure I'll be using it. Not looking forward to the leather issues however. Tony won't be able to handyman fix that. Time to consider some mitigating SureFit slipcovers. Guess this is as good a reason as any to get back to the gym and shed some pounds - don't want to stress this stuff any more than a Chinese sized person would. :-/ MikeSpeak is right - after I have to repeat this purchase in a couple of years I could have afforded the Hancock quality-level after all. Here's hoping Flexsteel (and the local retailer) gets what's coming to them - Carma :-) Sorry for all the emoticons but this is post the only therapy I'll be getting.

Anyone know if the (Montage) MFS-4 5 year premium combo protection plan is any better than the Flexsteel it insures?

Was that a warranty period repair? If so, do not accept the nut and bolt 'fix' and insist that a new mechanism be supplied. That is the correct way to repair a motion piece under warranty, not a kludge like that.

You can see why I dropped the line....

It is. Just delivered two days ago. This proves the Flexsteel warranty is nearly worthless considering this is what they sent and I have to assume it's all they got. The thing that gets me most is not being able to deal directly with the manufacturer. The local retailer's competence or caring can be a crap shoot and Flexsteel should know that or exercise better control over which are allowed to represent their brand. From all I've read today they just don't care about customers or quality. I can't tell you the trouble I went to to discover their phone number. It definitely wasn't posted on their site - just a form field with no real reply back once I used it.

Yes I can . . . with clear eyes now

Thanks for all the great info - for dropping these goofs and telling it like it is

That is unacceptable for a repair in a new piece, and your selling dealer knows it. They can get a mechanism from Flexsteel at no charge and Flexsteel will allow a labor charge to install it. You have specific legal rights with the warranty as spelled out by Flexsteel. Contact your selling dealer and inform them you would like a new mechanism. Here's the current Flexsteel Warranty. They will take care of this, but you do need to work through your selling dealer. If your selling dealer refuses to replace the mechanism, then contact the factory at the address on the bottom of their warranty policy. Good luck

OME FURNITURE WARRANTY

Lifetime Limited Warranty
Flexsteel Seat Spring, Feather Comfort Cushion (FC), Plush Cushion (PC), Extra Firm High Resiliency Cushion (HR), High Resiliency Luxury Cushion (HC), Recliner Mechanism and Frame.

Flexsteel warrants the seat spring, frame, and, where supplied, recliner mechanism, seat cushioning materials against failure or breakage for the lifetime of the product, while upholstered in the original fabric, under conditions of ordinary use, for as long as the original purchaser owns this furniture.

Note: Loss of cushion resilience should not be confused with slight softening and flattening of cushion foam and fibers as a result of normal use and aging. Cushion materials conform to the shape of the user and should not be considered manufacturing defects.

Five-year Limited Warranty
Sofa Sleeper Mechanisms
Flexsteel warrants sofa sleeper mechanisms against failure or breakage for a period of five years.

Five-year Limited Warranty
All power recliners and motion furniture that use Limoss motors, Limoss transformers, and all other Limoss electrical components are warranted to be free of defects in manufacturing and workmanship for five (5) years from date of purchase.

Two-year Limited Warranty
Luxury Cushion (LC)
Flexsteel warrants Luxury Cushion (LC), to be free from manufacturing defects for a period of 2 years.

One-year Limited Warranty
Upholstery Fabrics, Leather, and Metal Mechanical Parts
Flexsteel warrants upholstery fabrics, leather, metal mechanical parts, power recliner electrical components not covered by other warranties.

No two pieces of leather are exactly alike; variations and marks occur naturally and are not defects.

*Note: Velvets, chenilles and fabrics containing rayon may have color variation within, caused by the angle that light hits these fibers. Shading and crushing is a normal sign of use and are not a factory defect.

Other Rights
These warranties give you specific legal rights. You may also have other rights, which vary according to where you live. For warranties offered by other companies, you should contact those companies for further information.

Exclusions
These warranties do not apply to furniture intentionally misused, or to damage resulting from negligence, exposure, rental or commercial use, improper cleaning, or other unreasonable use, or to fabric damage or failure due to additional chemical treatment, improper cleaning, or when heavy soiling or abuse is evident. These warranties are not transferable.

Caution
Children should not be allowed to play on or operate motion products. The leg rest of a recliner folds down on closing and could result in injury to a child. Always leave unoccupied chairs in closed upright position. Smoldering smoking materials or flames can cause urethane foam to burn, creating upholstered furniture fires.

In The Event Of Defects
Report any defects promptly to your dealer with proof of purchase. If a needed repair is covered under the warranty, your Flexsteel dealer will make arrangements. Covered repairs will be completed within a reasonable amount of time. If a product is more than a year old, the original purchaser is responsible for costs incurred in shipping and labor for repair.

If a product is more than a year old, the original purchaser is responsible for costs incurred in shipping and labor for repair.

Ultra-soft Pillow Back
Ultra-soft pillow backs have sink-in softness thanks to blown-in cushion filling. If your sofa has one of these popular backs, its back pillows should be fluffed occasionally, just as with any other fine pillow, to keep those fine fibers evenly distributed.

Please refer to dealer for specific style warranties.

Warrantor:
Flexsteel Industries, Inc.
P.O. Box 877
Dubuque, IA 52004-0877

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Originally Posted by mikeSpeak

Turns out that buying from China is more expensive after all, if you include headaches, repair costs, and replacement costs of some piece of furniture that would have been a lifetime purchase, if it was US made.

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I don't think that everything made in China is crap, but these flexsteel chairs sure are. I chose flexsteel after sitting in a couple at a friend's house (they were made in the USA at the time) and we have regretted the decision ever since. I wish that this forum would show up as the first result in a google search on flexsteel. Please stay away from these chairs, spend less or spend more, but stay away!

[QUOTE=drcollie;313]I'm going to retire my Flexsteel dealership.

The stuff from China they have is CRAP.

Thank God I found this today! I was just about to buy another flexsteel sofa! I had no idea they were made in china! Thanks for your perseverance to American made.

[QUOTE=kreese;26007]

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Originally Posted by drcollie

I'm going to retire my Flexsteel dealership.

The stuff from China they have is CRAP.

Thank God I found this today! I was just about to buy another flexsteel sofa! I had no idea they were made in china! Thanks for your perseverance to American made.

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Apparently the Flexsteel stuff made in the USA is junk too. I bought a Flexsteel Lakewood sofa and loveseat (S5936-30) in 2010, which was part of their made in the USA line. Only 5 years later the frame on the seat back on both of them was broken. I am just now getting around to going through the hassle of trying to make a warranty claim through my dealer. We'll see how it goes. Although the frame supposedly has a lifetime warranty, I did notice this gem in the fine print: "If a product is more than a year old, the original purchaser is responsible for costs incurred in shipping and labor for repairs". Wonder how much they'll try to fleece me on these items.

"If a product is more than a year old, the original purchaser is responsible for costs incurred in shipping and labor for repairs"

This is pretty much standard in the furniture industry, not peculiar to Flexsteel. In most things you purchase, be it a Nikon Camera or an iMac Desktop, the consumer has to return it to the manufacturer for repair. Shipping back to you can go either way, depending in the find of the warranty and the company. Now, its a lot less money to ship a camera body back than a sofa - we all know that. Shipping is expensive and for say a 2-way round trip on a sofa using a white glove service it can run $ 600 to $ 800 easily. That's approaching the cost of the maker on the sofa like a Flexsteel, so they're not going to do that - nor is anyone else.

Here's the structure how warranties are handled on shipping. They are designed to go from Supplier to Dealer and back, not using blanket wrap service to residences.

The customer is on the hook to return it to the dealer they bought it from. Sometimes the dealer will go pick it up if local for goodwill. But it many hours away that likely is not going to happen. Once its back to the dealer, then its boxed or wrapped back up and returned on the dealer's regular carrier 'Free On Board', What this means is that the carriers generally do it gratis, at no charge since the dealer is a regular customer and it doesn't happen frequently. Once it gets back to the maker, its repaired and then if it was a legitimate claim (many are not) the maker pays the shipping back to the dealer and if not a valid warranty claim, the dealer has to pay for the return. Once at the dealer, it generally will be re-delivered free of charge to the customer's residence if local. This is how the system works.

When you buy from a dealer that is not local, then all that goes out the window. That's one of the trade-offs in distance buying to save money, you lose that perk the local dealer can give you if a return is involved. For example, if I sell a sofa and loveseat to a customer in Montana, and they say both pieces are defective because they sag, its up to them to return them to either the selling dealer (me in Virginia) or the direct to the maker in North Carolina. The maker is not going to shell out the $ 800 to get them back nor is the dealer.

As to Labor charges, that applies almost exclusively to repairs done locally where the customer lives. Mostly it applies to recliner mechanisms. If a mechanism fails in the first year, they pay for labor and parts. After the first year, they send a new mechanism free of charge, but don't pay to have it installed at a local upholstery shop.

This is one of the primary reasons I carry only high-end, well-made furniture. Legitimate claims are very few and far between. In fact, I have never had a frame break claim in 30 years in the business that was not shipping damage. No one likes warranty claim issues, so the way I get around that is to carry lines that don't have that history of being problematic.

We love our new Flexsteel oak upholstered rocking chair, and we love that it was "Made in America".
There was a tag on the chair claiming it was "Made in America", and the salesman told us it was Made in America.
Problem is, when we get it home, there is a made in china sticker under the arm of the chair.
I call that mis-representation, and false advertising. I went back to the dealer, and they told me that possibly the wood part
was made in china, and the upholstery was done in Riverside, Ca. They had a bunch of pieces with the "Made in America" tag.
They guaranteed me that those were made in America, they did not get my point at all... OK, I will not ever go back there, and I will tell
everyone about the problems I had. Bad dealer, nuff said.
But, how can Flexsteel put a tag on the chair that says "Made in America" if the chair was made in China? :confused:
It does not say Upholstered in America, what the heck?? I feel so let down, No more Flexsteel for me..

Most 'frames' from all makers are imports, and on those imports they will tend to come from either China, Vietnam or Malaysia. Believe it or not, the Vietnamese woodworking is pretty good. The frame is treated as a 'part', like screws and springs then brought to the USA as a part and typically assembled here. So I image your Flexsteel rocker was framed in China, and finished/upholstered here in the USA. That's pretty common and not really a mis-representation per se (in my opinion).

The American consumer has forced companies to do this, plain and simple. We shop with our wallets, and I see this every day in my store. Folks come in and say "I want _________, but I want it to be all American-made." Then I give them the price, the expression on their face falls and they say "That's outside of our budget, what do you have for $ 1,000 less?" And out comes the Pacific Rim Imports should I happen to something for less money. Believe me when I tell you that the people that run all the companies such as Flexsteel are the first to complain about how they are forced to source less costly components in order to stay in business. Those that don't generally perish unless they can carve out a niche market. We don't pay our workers $ 1.50 an hour, and we want our fellow Americans go have a decent standard of living (hence the movement for $ 15.00 and hour minimum wage), and employers have to pay FICA, Medicare, Worker's Comp health benefits to workers, which all comes down to higher cost per unit. Businesses run on percentages, so that is passed onto the end buyer. Let's say that Rocker Frame cost the probably $ 40 sourcing from China, I guarantee you it would be every bit of $ 250 from the USA. Big jump! So they get parts and components from all over the world to get the price down to a tolerable level to the consumer, that's why you see that 'made in China' sticker on the frame.

In many cases, you cannot buy a fully-made USA item, it no longer exists. The computer you are typing on to make a post to this forum was made in China or perhaps Korea, as is your smart phone of choice as well as the TV you watch shows in every night, there is no made-in-America option. The key is to make sure the item is high quality, not focus on the country of origin. That's the point of this forum, to give you the shopping tools to determine the quality of a piece before you buy. There's a lot of junk coming out of China, but the iMac I am typing this on certainly isn't. This is the World Economy we are in, and it's not going to change. I personally prefer to sell USA-made in my store, however I know that components of some of the pieces I sell, even the top USA-brands, will be sourced off-shore.

Duane,
What's your stance on some of these manufacturers moving production NOT to China, but south of the border to Mexico?

Living in Texas we see so many of the poorer Mexicans here, looking for a better life & in The Woodlands, we've recently seen a huge influx of the high, high income Mexicans fleeing the violence & kidnappings they've been having down there.

I've noticed a lot of car manufacturers have built factories in Mexico & I know I've seen in product descriptions of several brands of furniture say "Made in Mexico." It's the same conundrum there as in China: a factory worker there makes maybe $2-$4/hour(much higher than in China,) but significantly less than that worker making $18/hour in North Carolina.

Is the fact that Mexico has much cheaper labor costs, but still relatively very close by that the manufacturers can keep an eye on quality control why they chose to go that route? Or, is Mexico on par with China as far as churning out cheaply made consumer items?

I personally don't think so. I spent a month there with my family on vacay back in '00(before the violence & kidnappings started happening & it was safe for Americans.) We drove from Houston to San Miguel de Allende: a small, colonial town about 3hrs northwest of Mexico City. The craftsmanship of everything from the small stuff, like sterling silver jewelry & hand tooled leather goods, all the way to the big stuff like the hand carved solid wood furniture we saw everywhere all represented a thriving arts & crafts trade in the town.

Now, I know that San Miguel being the quaint resort town that it is & its popularity with both Americans & Europeans prob means that it's a unique example of the craftsmanship one can find in Mexico. That's VERY different than a mass production facility in a border town.

That's why I'd like your opinion on furniture companies' choice to move production out of America & into Mexico as opposed to China, or Malaysia?

Thanks :)

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Originally Posted by AreJay

We love our new Flexsteel oak upholstered rocking chair, and we love that it was "Made in America".
There was a tag on the chair claiming it was "Made in America", and the salesman told us it was Made in America.
Problem is, when we get it home, there is a made in china sticker under the arm of the chair.
I call that mis-representation, and false advertising. I went back to the dealer, and they told me that possibly the wood part
was made in china, and the upholstery was done in Riverside, Ca. They had a bunch of pieces with the "Made in America" tag.
They guaranteed me that those were made in America, they did not get my point at all... OK, I will not ever go back there, and I will tell
everyone about the problems I had. Bad dealer, nuff said.
But, how can Flexsteel put a tag on the chair that says "Made in America" if the chair was made in China? :confused:
It does not say Upholstered in America, what the heck?? I feel so let down, No more Flexsteel for me..

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I HATE that the law allows sales people to get away with almost anything they say. It's just not reasonable to expect the average customer to have a working knowledge of what they are purchasing. And the "Made in America" sales tag - even more misleading. I didn't know until literally 30 seconds ago when I read Duane's post that it's common in the industry for frames to be made in Asia and then upholstered in the US.

I don't know who to blame - I guess the companies for not training their sales staff at all about the product they are peddling? It's a pity we live in a world where we have to do all the legwork ahead of time because we can't trust a word of what we're told when we get to the store. Maybe that's one of the reasons why the brick and mortar stores across many industries are dying. If I have to look up all reviews and specs of an I-Pad and comparison shop that with a Tablet before I leave the house, I might as well order it off Amazon where it's likely to be cheaper anyways.

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Originally Posted by Jenny

I HATE that the law allows sales people to get away with almost anything they say. It's just not reasonable to expect the average customer to have a working knowledge of what they are purchasing. And the "Made in America" sales tag - even more misleading. I didn't know until literally 30 seconds ago when I read Duane's post that it's common in the industry for frames to be made in Asia and then upholstered in the US.

I don't know who to blame - I guess the companies for not training their sales staff at all about the product they are peddling? It's a pity we live in a world where we have to do all the legwork ahead of time because we can't trust a word of what we're told when we get to the store. Maybe that's one of the reasons why the brick and mortar stores across many industries are dying. If I have to look up all reviews and specs of an I-Pad and comparison shop that with a Tablet before I leave the house, I might as well order it off Amazon where it's likely to be cheaper anyways.

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Jenny,

It IS a PIA!! Not many ppl have the time to put that kinda legwork into researching each & every furniture & home decor piece they're considering purchasing. Hell, a lot of ppl hardly have time to just make dinner! Lol

Most reputable brick & mortar stores, I would think do put some kinda effort into training their staff. But, mostly just about the basics of the lines they carry. If a salesman is wanting to have an in-depth knowledge akin to Duane's about those lines...it'll be up to he/she to put in their own legwork.

We're very much a consumer driven economy & the vast majority of the buying public really could care less, I think. Those of us regularly on this forum are the minority. We've read the educational posts & it sparked something in us to continue reading & learning. You won't find the average John & Jane Doe on a forum like this.

They're down at Ashley or Rooms 2 Go, thinking they're buying quality furniture. With the consumerism in our culture, they're not concerned with "will it last a lifetime?" Because, for all intents and purposes, they're NOT planning on keeping it that long.

The mass production furniture companies know this & build to that spec. The major furniture stores(Star, Macy's, Ashley, etc) want that same cpl to return in several years to purchase MORE; regardless of how well their previous purchase lasted.

It's a buy, buy, buy mentality that trickles down. There would be no successful online home goods sites like Wayfair & Overstock if that weren't the case.

I was just reading the latest issues of Architectural Digest & Elle Decor this weekend. They had several articles showcasing very high-end Interior Designers' homes in them. These designers have to have a college degree, plus earn a certification equal to that of an Architect's...that's roughly 4-6 years of education combined. Anyways lol, they owned pieces in their beautifully appointed homes that have been discussed here as not worth the money they cost because the quality is questionable at best!

Lol, take that for confusing!! Why would an Interior Designer with all that education choose to buy something for their own home that is subpar?! And yet, those pieces looked beautiful in their professionally shot layouts...I know better, because I've chosen to put the time into researching these brands. Especially these higher end, design mag advertised brands that are marketed to ppl with the income to afford them.

I'm as guilty as anyone in buying something I knew was not the best quality or craftsmanship just because I liked the look of it. But, the caveat is that I was aware of my poor buying decision & went thru with it anyways.

I will say that I find it sad we've become such a consumer driven economy that everybody's just looking for the cheapest thing they can find. And I agree with Duane when he says we pretty much brought ourselves to this point: if we weren't so concerned with "gotta have it now" & "I want it for the cheapest possible price," a lot more ppl would be demanding higher quality & knowledgeable staff to guide us.

I do however, agree with you that if a piece of furniture has several parts sourced from different countries, I'd like that info to be readily available. Or, at least somewhat easily accessible to find. I shouldn't have to take the piece apart to find the frame came from China, the upholstery was milled in Egypt & sewn in Pakistan, & all put together in the USA. That's NOT American made to me! That's American assembled.

I don't really have a take on Made in Mexico vs Made in China, sorry.

I prefer to support America's economy as best I can, not only in what I personally buy but in what I sell as well. I tend to think we have a pretty good work ethic in the USA and for the most part turn out a decent product, plus it keeps our citizens employed and that's the most important part of it all. Having said that, there are certain things you can't get in the USA any more and makers have to go overseas to source. Like leather hides, the nails and screws that hold it all together, the springs for the suspension, its just not available here any more. So you can't get hung up on that whole "Made in the USA" thing and percentage of content, or you'll make yourself bonkers. For example, even on the most USA-made upholstery company I know of - Hancock and Moore - all the bar stool frames are imported. Why? Cost is why. People already recoil at a barstool costing $ 1,300, if that frame was domestically made it would cost $ 2,300, per each. At a certain point an item has price saturation and is no longer viable, so what they do is import the frames, but they hold their makers to a very high standard. I've never had a frame failure on an H&M bar stool, they are made like tanks - so if it doesn't fail does it really matter where the frame is produced? Maybe it does for those American jobs - but then can you sell it for $ 2,300? I doubt it. See the double-edged sword that the people that run these companies face? You the consumer makes the decisions for them, by voting with your wallet. That's the long and short of it all.

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Originally Posted by drcollie

I don't really have a take on Made in Mexico vs Made in China, sorry.

I prefer to support America's economy as best I can, not only in what I personally buy but in what I sell as well. I tend to think we have a pretty good work ethic in the USA and for the most part turn out a decent product, plus it keeps our citizens employed and that's the most important part of it all. Having said that, there are certain things you can't get in the USA any more and makers have to go overseas to source. Like leather hides, the nails and screws that hold it all together, the springs for the suspension, its just not available here any more. So you can't get hung up on that whole "Made in the USA" thing and percentage of content, or you'll make yourself bonkers. For example, even on the most USA-made upholstery company I know of - Hancock and Moore - all the bar stool frames are imported. Why? Cost is why. People already recoil at a barstool costing $ 1,300, if that frame was domestically made it would cost $ 2,300, per each. At a certain point an item has price saturation and is no longer viable, so what they do is import the frames, but they hold their makers to a very high standard. I've never had a frame failure on an H&M bar stool, they are made like tanks - so if it doesn't fail does it really matter where the frame is produced? Maybe it does for those American jobs - but then can you sell it for $ 2,300? I doubt it. See the double-edged sword that the people that run these companies face? You the consumer makes the decisions for them, by voting with your wallet. That's the long and short of it all.

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I agree, that if you get hung up on where each & every component of an end product was sourced, it will def drive you crazy! Lol

I drive a BMW & am under the impression most, if not all of my car was built in Germany. However, as much as I love my 3 series convertible, its maintainence requirements have been 1 thing after another pretty much every 6 months or so. In dealing with these issues & getting them taken care of, I've always requested OEM parts for the job. Some of these are genuine BMW & others, Bosch or whomever BMW sourced that particular part from. If I took apart the car piece, by piece even tho its VIN tag states "Made in Germany," I'm sure I'd find more than a few parts NOT from that country.

I was unaware that H&M sourced their barstool frames from outside the USA. That's very surprising, but I understand why. Unless you're looking at very high-end, designer made barstools, not many ppl will fork over $2,300 for that item. Even the consumer who's bought their other pieces at significantly higher prices. It's a correlation thing: ppl can justify spending $10,000 on a well made, quality sofa that'll last years. They don't see that value in an item like a barstool. I like to think I'm 1 of those that can justify & swallow a higher price for quality, workmanship & exclusivity of the product...& even I'm not comfortable with spending anything really over $1,500 for a barstool.

Unless you're eating most of your meals at your kitchen counter, etc it just doesn't make sense. They're dead space fillers if they're NOT being utilized regularly. In my aptmt, there's not a dining area. The living room flows directly into the kitchen; so, my counter stools are functional in that they're the only real designated for dining seating & I don't even use them! Lol

Well, I was asking more along the lines of are the made in Mexico products of an equally inferior quality as the made in China? Or, because Mexico is much closer than China & their economy is very much dependent on ours, are the manufacturers choosing Mexico over China turning out a slightly better quality product?

If I'm understanding you correctly; you're saying you haven't taken much notice of it because you opt to only deal with companies that are committed to continue manufacturing in the USA. I think all of us would love to practice that same mentality...but, it's as you say, becoming more & more difficult to do so. My high quality MacBook wasn't built here, nor my phone that I'm typing on, or much of the produce I'm buying weekly at the grocery store. It's frustrating, but it's the reality of a world economy.

Thanks for your honest opinion...it's 1 of many reasons why I continue to come back daily to this forum & seek it out :)

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Originally Posted by drcollie

Let's say that Rocker Frame cost the probably $ 40 sourcing from China, I guarantee you it would be every bit of $ 250 from the USA. Big jump! So they get parts and components from all over the world to get the price down to a tolerable level to the consumer, that's why you see that 'made in China' sticker on the frame.

In many cases, you cannot buy a fully-made USA item, it no longer exists.

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Duane:
Thank you for your insightful and helpful reply, it must be obvious to manufacturers that buyers want items made in the USA, but what I think I want more is the manufacturer and seller NOT misleading me, knowingly.
The tag says it all, "Made in America" which might mean North America, I get that. However, no matter what, Made in America is not Made in China. I get that we as Americans have a more for less, "Wal-Mart" sort of mentality. However, I did not go to Wal Mart, I went to what I thought was a nice furniture store, saw a tag, and bought the item. The sales persons wanted to sell me the $200 chairs, but they are crap. I told them what I wanted, I did not bicker on price, I think I paid $650 or $700 for the chair, I do not think I "should have known" that I was not getting what the tag said.
The salesmen were right back on me when I went back, promising that the sofas, recliners, etc were indeed 100% Made in America, because they were all upholstered. Even though the said it was possible the frame on the chair was made in China.

I bought a car recently, the sticker explained the origin of the major parts, and percentages, etc. There was no Made in America sticker on it, and I knew what I was getting.

I guess if I really want to get a US made chair, I need to go find a place that makes the pieces right there.

You know, actually our entire bedroom set (7 pieces) was Made in Arlington Washington, beautiful craftsmanship, and solid pieces, I do not think I am out of line expecting stuff to be what the tag says. And, when I had a problem with the top on the lowboy dresser, they made us a new top, amazing!!! I guess that was 10 years ago, that must be the good old days.

How about the furniture that "The Amish" make in Pennsylvania? Do you tell people that in your store? I assume not.

Again, thank for your insightful reply, business in America is not easy, but neither is being a consumer.

AreJay.

You know, I have enough contacts that we can get most anything 100% Made in America for a customer if they desire. I have tried hard to wave the Red, White and Blue in my store for thirty years now, but if you hold to your Patriotism too tightly in business you can find yourself out of business, because the consumer won't pay the price. A typical scenario is someone comes in my store with a photo or catalog page of an item they saw at a store but it was made in China, and they want a stronger, USA-made version of it done correctly. When I give them an estimate of a projected cost, their face drops and they say "I'm not willing to pay that - are you sure?" and that is what happens 95 % of the time.

The average American Woodworker tries to book his shop time at $ 40 an hour (plus materials), vs say $ 120 an hour for a car mechanic in a dealership garage. That has to pay the overhead and business expenses and leaves them with an annual salary of around $ 35K to $ 40K per year. You don't ever see them living in nice homes or driving new trucks and it's not a career that pays well, the car mechanic makes much more money. Because of the relatively low subsistence wages in this trade you do not see people clamoring to learn it and for the few that do its because they love the art, not to make money. There is simply a lot of labor to make things right. Since the consumer says 'it must be made for less' than how to deal with that? You can use untrained or semi-skilled workers, you can use cheap materials, you can automate, or you can take steps out of the construction to make it 'good enough' instead of doing it right. And you can take it offshore to where the labor force works for much less. And this is what happens.

Companies that adhere to the "Made only in America" mantra in the furniture business are the one that are usually stranding by the fax machine waiting for an order to come in. Meanwhile stores like Bob's Discount Furniture and Ashley's flourish with their cheaper than cheap goods and grow their businesses, and those are the ones getting rich off furniture. They pay $ 180 for a faux leather sofa, it costs $ 200 to ship and land it from China in bulk and they sell it ON SALE for $ 799. Gross Profit Margin 52 %. Meanwhile, your domestic dealer is paying $ 2,500 for a quality made in the USA leather sofa, $ 150 to land it and selling it for $ 3,600. Gross Profit Margin 26%. Who's making money? The guy selling the cheap stuff. If the $ 3,600 sofa returned the same margin it would have to retail at $ 5,600. Now you have consumer backlash on price. The fact that the $ 799 sofa is a 2 year piece at best vs 30 years on the quality one is a moot point, the consumer sees the dollar signs more than anything else. So it's difficult to balance these factors as both a maker and a retailer.

I can build you a rocker that will last for generations. It will still be around in 300 years. Know what people say when I tell them that? "I'll be dead then, so I don't need that". And they miss the point. That rocker made right will never squeak, wiggle, loosen a joint or deteriorate unless it's left outside to weather. And that rocker I build will be $ 2,000. It will have the best joinery, and the best materials and is put together by a master craftsman. But do you want to pay $ 2K for one? Probably not.

And my thought's on "Amish-made" furniture are well-known. For the life of me, I have no idea why folks think "Amish-made' is a sign of quality and craftsmanship, I think they watched the movie 'Witness' one too many times. I don't sell Amish-made furniture nor would I ever buy a piece for myself because I've never met an Amish woodworker that knows the art of cabinetmaking. They are at best carpenters, but that doesn't make them cabinetmakers.

We have that sub-section for non-furniture topics, no one ever uses it!

http://www.myfurnitureforum.com/foru...5-The-Campfire

I will move these threads there under CAR TALK

Hi Duane, I have a somewhat off topic question for you and noticed you were not taking PM's. I am a brand new member (see my intro post of this afternoon). Let me say I agree with your ethics wholeheartedly and am willing to cut into profits to maintain them if needed. Anyway, I am currently looking for some fabric that Flexsteel uses and am trying to get it from the jobber or mill rather that pay retail. I use 6 or 7 national companies for fabrics but am stumped by this one as they seem to add their own descriptions (part numbers, color names, etc) for their stuff. A fellow named Tom, in Flexsteel's accounting office assured me that the fabric was available through jobbers but could tell me no more. Any ideas? When I have more time I will post my website on my personal page if you care to take a look at it....sounds like you'd appreciate some of the things we create and repair around here. Thank you Duane (et al) for your time!
Socks

That's Needle-in-a-Haystack sort of thing, there's no quick and easy way to find that out. About the only way I can think to do that is to call Flexsteel and tell them you are the attorney for Ms. So n' So and she has a terrible rash that has made her very ill and hospitalized from sitting on that fabric and is going to bring a lawsuit against Flexsteel or the Mill that makes it. Then ask how you can contact the Flexsteel legal team and or the Mill. Betting they will give up the Mill pretty fast.... not that I would ever do that...lol

Just bought my first Flexsteel rocker recliner a few months ago. Huge mistake. I threw out a 25 year old Berkline recliner that was still more comfortable than this new Mexico made piece of crap. I literally can't sit in this chair. As soon as you sit, you lay so far back that your feet leave the ground. I'm 5'10", shouldn't be this way. You can't sit in this chair without reclining it. Reclined, it's a little better, but the bar on the tailbone was a problem day one. The chair doesn't rock far enough forward to exit the chair. Horrible all the way around.

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Originally Posted by discus82

Just bought my first Flexsteel rocker recliner a few months ago. Huge mistake. I threw out a 25 year old Berkline recliner that was still more comfortable than this new Mexico made piece of crap. I literally can't sit in this chair. As soon as you sit, you lay so far back that your feet leave the ground. I'm 5'10", shouldn't be this way. You can't sit in this chair without reclining it. Reclined, it's a little better, but the bar on the tailbone was a problem day one. The chair doesn't rock far enough forward to exit the chair. Horrible all the way around.

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Then why did you buy this chair ?

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Originally Posted by Stick

Then why did you buy this chair ?

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My wife liked it, I was against it from the beginning. She now sees the error of her ways, but doesn't mean she'll learn from it...

I understand :)

I understand some of Flex Steel are made in the USA and some in China?

Latitudes collection is made in China...I have it...its garbage save your money.