Protected vs Unprotected leathers - wear and cracking

[LastingFurn]

Hi Duane, you provided some great advice on about leathers in this thread. In summary for others, great information on the differences between leathers is here. The little known options for stitching are discussed here. Miles77 provides a picture of the wear that protected leathers can show over time as the top leather coating wears off here.

As you recommended I got leather swatches from Hancock and Moore for the protected Document Claret and Philosophy Burgundy, and the options you suggested would look better over time the unprotected Remington Garnet Burnished and Tilton Ruby. My wife is considering.

So I'm wondering if unprotected will show less cracking over time. Our existing sofa acquired from a friend 25 years ago when almost new when she had to move might be a Hancock and Moore, it is certainly well made, here it is:


Being smarter as I am now, I now realize the cushions are Springdown, and remarkably bounce back and hold their shape as well as when we got it. However, the leather is very cracked, and in some places the top layer is actually worn off, as in these pictures:


The leather "seems" be be protected to these amateur eyes, a bit shiny. So my question is, in your experience would the kind of cracking and wearing shown in these pictures be more, less, or not affected depending if the leather is protected or unprotected?

[drcollie]

I don't like the terms "Protected" and "Unprotected", because that makes one seem tough and that other fragile, which is not the case. This is more accurate:

Protected = Painted
Unprotected = Aniline Dyed

The photos you show above are abused. That is not normal for any leather of any kind. However, that is a painted leather in your photos.

One household can destroy a brand new leather sofa in three years, a different household can take the same exact sofa and get 10x the lifespan out of it - 30 years, or more. Durability is more a function of the owner / family / environment / pets than it is choosing a hide for a new build. I see that on a daily basis, actually.

Paint comes off, its a sacrificial coating on anything its applied to. How rapidly it comes off all depends on the care and owner.

Aniline Dyes do not lose their color coat, but they are subject to sun (UV) fade and staining, and can darker and fracture in areas when not cleaned and conditioned on a schedule.

[LastingFurn]

Thanks Duane, Tilton Ruby is winning right now. Unprotected, looks quite nice, thanks for the suggestion.

So this shows how thorough my research has been... can I ask what you think of your comments about Springdown for leather on this forum from 16 years ago? In short, that Springdown can be hard on leather, especially protected, less so on unprotected:

Here's the thing....go sit on a spring down cushion and you notice its very flexible. On the edges, back, all over. Perfect for fabric, that moves and stretches.

Leather does not move and stretch like fabric. So what happens when you sit on it? You are forcing the leather to move beyond its limited range, and that causes stress to the material.

All protected leathers have surface topcoating. Think of it as paint. Unprotected leathers have little or no topcoating.

If you paint a piece of notebook paper and then start flexing it, what happens to the paper? Does it tear or rip? No.... but the paint gets hairline cracks in it from exceeding the elasticity of the coating. Now, if you take that same paint and put it on a piece of posterboard, and flex the poster board some, what happens? Nothing, because the poster board is more supportive and not as flexible.

The more supportive your foundation, the less your top material flexes. That's why standard cushions are designed firmer and more supportive on the edges to mimimize that flex and keep your leather piece looking better as it ages.

This kind of thinking is one reason we are still thinking of either the entry level 21 lbs Qualux or one up 27 lbs Qualux for the seat cushions. (As you have pointed out, 31 and 41 would be too hard for most people.)

Very unfortunately, nobody within driving distance has these various cushions to try. If we could get some confidence somehow that 21 or 27 would be nice, and not too firm, we are wondering if it would be better than Springdown, so as to avoid the kinds of stresses you mentioned in the above post?

[drcollie]

Things change over 15 years - not only the product itself but my knowledge base as well. Even the IRS only goes back 7 years!

No dealer is every going to have a Plus 2 firmness piece on the floor, its not ordered by anyone to speak of. I may get one order a year for that stiff a cushion, it will not be shown on a floor model anyhere.

Spring down adds plushness and that core is far better today than the one built in 2007.

[LastingFurn]

Thanks Duane. We have decided on Springdown cushions, and Tilton Ruby leather.

I understand your distinction that Protected really means Painted, and that surface paint can wear off.

Since we are going with unprotected (analine dyed) Tilton Ruby, is there some way to get the "best of both worlds" and get the common place definition of protected? My understanding is that unprotected will show darkening from oils from hands and heads more so than protected.

We are going to take your suggestion and clean and condition twice a year, when the clocks change.

Are their top quality conditioners or other coatings you would recommend to minimize staining or discoloration, whether from skin and hair oils or spills etc., and leave us with the best of both worlds - the quality of unprotected analine dyed, but also some level of surface protection?

[drcollie]

Yes, there is an entire thread on this in the Leather section on care/cleaning/conditioning. Follow that and you should have no issues over the years.

What always happens - ALWAYS - is people want a cure after the damage is done, and that generally is not possible. It's all about preventative practices.

[LastingFurn]

Hi Duane, we have ordered Hancock and Moore. But Tilton Ruby is not available, so I was talking to them, and they said something confusing to me. I hope you can help me unravel this.

They said that Tilton Ruby is aniline. And top grain.

But then they said that Document Claret, at least the Claret version of the Document line, is also aniline, but also with a "transparent" protective finish. That sounds like a good combination. And then they added that it is full grain, which surprised me.

I looked up the two, and the H&M site does say that Tilton is top grain, and Document Claret is full grain:
https://www.hancockandmoore.com/Prod...therDetail/830
https://www.hancockandmoore.com/Prod...therDetail/556

This makes Document Claret seem like a winning choice. Full grain instead of top grain, and both aniline *and* a protected finish.

Does this make sense?

[drcollie]

Every leather at Hancock and Moore is Top Grain. FULL Top Grain means a pure aniline, however. Note that difference.

Tilton is a Pure Aniline from South America with a mild pull-up effect. GR3.

Document is a Finished leather from China. The copy on the H&M website is wrong. It's also a GR 3 (due to tariffs) and is not a leather I have ever liked. I refer to it as the "Cheez_Wiz" of leathers as its highly processed, over--painted and has an artificial look to it. But, a lot of people like Cheez-Wiz and Processed American Cheese, right? But for those who look for a higher standard, there is Piave Cheese out of Italy -its expensive but there is nothing quite like it with a nice bottle of Chianti. No one ever recommended a wine with Cheez-Wiz - but I digress...

FYI, a pure aniline does not have a "protective" finish, ever. "Protective" means painted.

Sounds like you have been talking in the phone with the customer service ladies at H&M. They are great, but most have been working there 6 months, maybe a year, its high turnover in the department and most don't know their leathers very well. They read from the book and when the book is wrong, well......

Tilton Ruby has not been dropped as far as I know. It should be current. Do you mean its just not on-hand and in-stock?

[tonyhoang]

Every leather at Hancock and Moore is Top Grain. FULL Top Grain means a pure aniline, however. Note that difference.

Tilton is a Pure Aniline from South America with a mild pull-up effect. GR3.

Document is a Finished leather from China. The copy on the H&M website is wrong. It's also a GR 3 (due to tariffs) and is not a leather I have ever liked. I refer to it as the "Cheez_Wiz" of leathers as its highly processed, over--painted and has an artificial look to it. But, a lot of people like Cheez-Wiz and Processed American Cheese, right? But for those who look for a higher standard, there is Piave Cheese out of Italy -its expensive but there is nothing quite like it with a nice bottle of Chianti. No one ever recommended a wine with Cheez-Wiz - but I digress...

FYI, a pure aniline does not have a "protective" finish, ever. "Protective" means painted.

Sounds like you have been talking in the phone with the customer service ladies at H&M. They are great, but most have been working there 6 months, maybe a year, its high turnover in the department and most don't know their leathers very well. They read from the book and when the book is wrong, well......

Tilton Ruby has not been dropped as far as I know. It should be current. Do you mean its just not on-hand and in-stock?

Wow drcollie, your knowledge is ridiculously vast. Been reading through the forum and you really know every answer!