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Thread: Restoration Hardware Sofa & Alteratives

  1. #11
    greenlander Guest

    Default Re: Restoration Hardware Sofa & Alteratives

    Oh, and Moore & Giles just says that the leather is from a 150 year old Italian tannery, along with some sales pitchy stuff. They do, however, offer a PDF will full specs on the leather (i.e. stats on thickness and performance), but it's all greek to me.

  2. #12
    greenlander Guest

    Default Re: Restoration Hardware Sofa & Alteratives

    So, I further inquired about the LG version of the RH Lancaster. Specifically, I was inquiring whether the frame was 100% solid hardwood, as I've read that if a certain percentage is hardwood (leaving the rest to MDF/what have you), furniture makers can say "solid hardwood frame". Additionally, since they specify no-sag suspension and not 8-way, I inquired about whether it was sinuous/etc as well as requesting photos of frame joints and suspension. As has been the case thus far, LG has been very responsive.

    Here are my results, along with my thoughts. Hopefully others in my position can learn from the results and feedback from others on the forum (especially Duane, of course) in regards to them.

    - The photos were not available off hand, and are being requested from the factory. This is good that it is being pursued, but I was fairly surprised this wasn't readily available.
    - The default suspension is sinuous, and this is a choice made by the factory. LG did however offer to upgrade/switch to 8-way hand tied for no additional charge, which I found impressive. I followed up asking whether all 8 points are knotted or just looped, still waiting on that. I was however surprised by their contention that the sinuous suspension offered better support for this sofa in their opinion because of it being "heavier gauge and firmer", stating that the 8 way is "more flexible and springier" but ultimately leaving the choice up to me. I think it is great that they're willing to offer the 8 way, but find the default choice of sinuous suprising considering what I've read about the superiority of 8 way.
    - LG confirmed 100% hardwood, but forthcomingly offered up the info that "most manufacturers do not use only hardwood boards, but also incorporate in hardwood laminates (furniture plywood) into specific vertical spans for more strength" because "they use this in key vertical spans to create more torsional strength and just more strength in general." I'd love some help evaluating the veracity of these statements, as I don't really know the reality myself. I've followed up requesting info on whether the frame is double-doweled + glued + screwed. Will post when I find out.

    If all this ends up being good news (as it sounds to me so far), I'm feeling somewhat more confident about this sofa being a value. I hope to find out that this is a quality product offered at a fair price.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Restoration Hardware Sofa & Alteratives

    Interesting. They will simply change the spring system like that at no charge? I'm rather amazed since 1) 8-way Hand Tied is considerably more expensive to do, and 2) They have to do some engineering to retrofit. Its more than just a matter of swapping spring systems out. To put it another way, lets say a car only comes standard with a manual transmission, but you want an automatic. The car maker says "no problem, we'll put an auto trans in there for you at no extra charge".

    And I am amused but their comment on 'more strength' from plywood. I think you can answer that one for yourself at Home Depot. Get a solid board and a piece of plywood (any size thickness) of the same approximate size and see which has more flex and torsional strength. Answer" Solid Lumber. That's one of the main issues with Plywood it has no torsional strength and flexes. Manufacturers use it in for a few reasons 1) its less costly 2) easier to run on a CNC machine 3) Complex curves are easier to cut.

    A sinuous spring setup is done in an boxed arc and fastened to the wood frame. Commonly used in seat backs that don't get the high weight loading that seating areas get, I'd be concerned about the tension in these spring sagging in a few years of use, physics alone would say that would be the tendency. You sit atop the arc of the springs, pushing down on them. Over a long span such as that sofa, it would give me pause. Buy I'm just speculating on their build, thats all.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  4. #14
    greenlander Guest

    Default Re: Restoration Hardware Sofa & Alteratives

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    Interesting. They will simply change the spring system like that at no charge? I'm rather amazed since 1) 8-way Hand Tied is considerably more expensive to do, and 2) They have to do some engineering to retrofit. Its more than just a matter of swapping spring systems out. To put it another way, lets say a car only comes standard with a manual transmission, but you want an automatic. The car maker says "no problem, we'll put an auto trans in there for you at no extra charge".
    Not that I don't get the spirit of what you're saying, but isn't comparing swapping sofa suspensions to swapping car transmissions a bit of an over-generalization? I don't think we're talking about apples and apples here.

    Moreover, if the eight-way is of the drop in variety (which I've read isn't optimal but still perfectly okay), wouldn't fastening a drop-in sinuous suspension to the frame be similar to fastening a drop-in 8-way?

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    And I am amused but their comment on 'more strength' from plywood. I think you can answer that one for yourself at Home Depot. Get a solid board and a piece of plywood (any size thickness) of the same approximate size and see which has more flex and torsional strength. Answer" Solid Lumber. That's one of the main issues with Plywood it has no torsional strength and flexes. Manufacturers use it in for a few reasons 1) its less costly 2) easier to run on a CNC machine 3) Complex curves are easier to cut.
    Actually, I did some research and according to several sources online, their contention is correct. Additionally, these sources are talking about standard plywood, not hardwood plywood (which would be even stronger than standard plywood).

    Solid wood is stronger than fiberboard, but not as strong as plywood or oriented strand board. - wikipedia (unreferenced, though)

    One of the most versatile sheet goods, plywood is used to construct everything from fine furniture to sheathing and sub-floors. It is produced in large standard sizes that have increased efficiency in the construction industry and is both stronger and cheaper than solid wood. It is more resistive to shrinking, twisting, warping and cracking ... - Home Depot

    ... plywood is much less likely to expand or shrink based on moisture in the environment, and the alternating construction creates a board that is much stronger in each direction than a similarly sized board cut from a single tree. - woodworking.about.com

    Continued reading turned up repeated sources highlighting plywood's torsional and general strength vs. solid wood because of the way plywood is constructed (alternating direction wood fiber in the sheets).

    Learn something new every day, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    A sinuous spring setup is done in an boxed arc and fastened to the wood frame. Commonly used in seat backs that don't get the high weight loading that seating areas get, I'd be concerned about the tension in these spring sagging in a few years of use, physics alone would say that would be the tendency. You sit atop the arc of the springs, pushing down on them. Over a long span such as that sofa, it would give me pause. Buy I'm just speculating on their build, thats all.
    Your logic sounds solid to me. I can't see how a sinuous suspension could hold up on that length and depth as well as an 8-way, unless there are some sort of re-inforcements throughout the span of the frame/suspension. Admittedly, I'm no furniture builder and have no idea how this thing is put together, which is why I'm hoping for more pictures.
    Last edited by greenlander; 09-02-2010 at 11:47 AM.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Restoration Hardware Sofa & Alteratives

    I suppose you can bolt any spring system into a frame, that's all Sleeper sofas are, for example....If you're comfortable with that, then like they say "You pays your money, you takes your choice!"

    Here's the thing with plywood : 1) It disintegrates when it gets wet (not much an issue in a leather sofa, granted); and 2) It lacks torsional stiffness. In a sofa frame, that means it racks. The stiffest frames are made of hardwood, and a good foundation means better function of the springs. That doesn't mean that the Engineered Plywood frame is bad - a lot of makers use it. But its a cost savings measure, that's the major reason they do.

    There are only two ways to reduce the cost of building quality upholstery. One is to remove material or substitute it for lesser product, and the second is to reduce labor costs. All these makers know the RIGHT way to build something, but they must determine what segment of the market they want to service. Hancock and Moore is the 800 lb Gorilla of the premium leather upholstery market, for example and their sofa retails for $ 3,000 (example). Its built right and with no shortcuts. Acme Furniture wants to build a similar sofa, but their management doesn't want to go head-to-head with H&M for a variety of reasons, and decides they want to sell their sofa for $ 2,000 retail. So how do they maintain their profit margin on a lower priced sofa? Well, they do that by using plywood frames, and no-sag springs for starters, and then hire $ 12 an hour workers instead of the $ 20 a hour higher skilled ones at H&M. Acme won't say their sofa is as good as H&M's because everyone in the trade knows its not - but its more price-friendly and thats their goal, to capture that $ 2K customer who is not going to spend $ 3K on a sofa. And of course, there's also a guy that is targeting Acme and wants to sell his for $ 1,000 retail as well, and that sofa is out there as well. Everything works well when its new, the acid test is the performance at the 5 year mark, and the 10 year mark, etc....performance over time is the real measure of a quality piece.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  6. #16
    greenlander Guest

    Default Re: Restoration Hardware Sofa & Alteratives

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    I suppose you can bolt any spring system into a frame, that's all Sleeper sofas are, for example....If you're comfortable with that, then like they say "You pays your money, you takes your choice!"
    I thought I had read another thread elsewhere on this forum where you indicated that Bradington Young uses drop-in eight way suspensions and defended its reliability? Did I misread/misunderstand?

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    2) It lacks torsional stiffness. In a sofa frame, that means it racks.
    See, this is where I'm finding information to the contrary. Setting aside a kid's science fair project that I found online, every single other resource I've consulted has indicated that the torsional stiffness of modern plywood is greater than that of solid wood. I understand you have many years of experience telling you otherwise, and I'm inclined to trust your experience. Any idea why I'm finding so much evidence to contradict your claim?

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Restoration Hardware Sofa & Alteratives

    B-Y uses Drop-in grids and leather secondary splits on its ENVISION Series, not its mainstream leather product that is sold under the Bradington Young brand name. I do not carry the ENVISON series and have no plans to.

    As to the torsional stiffness of plywood (twisting movement when used as a frame) I don't have an engineering background to make the proof, but if it were superior construction (we already know it costs less), ask yourself why companies like H&M and Leathercraft and Classic Leather haven't fully converted to it? It would be far less costly for them. I handle plenty of both types of frames in my store, and I can tell you without reservation that the plywood frames have considerably more flex in them when being moved and delivered to customers homes.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  8. #18
    greenlander Guest

    Default Re: Restoration Hardware Sofa & Alteratives

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    As to the torsional stiffness of plywood (twisting movement when used as a frame) I don't have an engineering background to make the proof, but if it were superior construction (we already know it costs less), ask yourself why companies like H&M and Leathercraft and Classic Leather haven't fully converted to it? It would be far less costly for them. I handle plenty of both types of frames in my store, and I can tell you without reservation that the plywood frames have considerably more flex in them when being moved and delivered to customers homes.
    Duane -- good points, but I'm wondering if there's not more behind the choice of hardwood over furniture grade plywood in frame choices. I've really taken an interest in this (as you've noticed), and have continued to research. Admittedly, the argument made by the document I'll link in a moment is a tough one to stack up against the raw cost argument, but it is yet another document that indicates that torsional stiffness and overall strength is superior in plywood vs. solid wood. At the very least, it should be more food for thought in this debate.

    Here's a quote from it, full document linked.

    If a standard hardwood upholstered frame is built as a case goods frame, once the glue joint is
    cracked, the frame is in failure. Once a hidden knot is cracked, the frame is in failure. If the
    hardwood is ‘wind shook’, and no one finds it, the frame will be in failure if dynamically loaded.
    Once in failure, the dowels will break, the screws will work out, and the frame will start to
    squeak, then get loose. The arm will wiggle, etc.

    If you don’t believe this, I suggest you have a true case goods type hardwood frame made, then
    have a true engineered plywood frame made to identical specifications. Take them to a reputable
    testing lab and have both tested to destruction. I have found the dynamic loaded case good type
    upholstery frame will fail between 15 and 20,000 cycles. The testing lab will turn the testing
    machine off at 100,000 cycles and call it a day for a well engineered plywood frame..


    Full document here: (note, I've yet to determine the source of this document, but it seems to be a document meant for and circulated to those on the inside of the furniture industry).

    http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...hz6Otw22ebmVZg

  9. #19
    sofa123 Guest

    Default Re: Restoration Hardware Sofa & Alteratives

    Quote Originally Posted by greenlander View Post
    Here's a quote from it, full document linked.

    [I][b]If a standard hardwood upholstered frame is built as a case goods frame, once the glue joint is
    cracked, the frame is in failure. Once a hidden knot is cracked, the frame is in failure.
    Hidden knot? Good manufacturers probably xray/scan the wood and discard any knotted wood.
    Glue joint cracked? What's plywood made of? It's all glued together. Sometimes with lots of formaldehyde containing glue.

    The author above says he's found the frame fails after 15-20000 cycles. Later in his article, he says something along the lines of we need to do the tests to get the word out about plywood. So have they done the tests or not? Is this article from an unbiased source. What about the disadvantages of plywood? Do they test stress in all directions or just perpendicular to the piece of plywood. In the real world, stress is not in a single direction. Sofas get pushed, turned, and pulled. Why are homes not framed with plywood?

    How long does plywood hold up or last? What happens to plywood when it's exposed to excessive moisture and heat? Does hardwood delaminate? If plywood delams, can it be repaired? These are all relevant questions.

    For case goods, what happens when you chip that veneer? Can it be repaired or do you live with the exposed plywood?

    Even if they can prove plywood is stronger (all I saw was statements without any independent tests), I'll still choose a hardwood frame. In my opinion, there is less potential for toxic fumes, just wood. Quality hardwood has passed the test of time and there are very old intact furniture pieces around. True, it takes more skill and costs more to use hardwood. An unskilled manufacturer using hardwood probably makes a worse product than using plywood. I'd like to hear what H&M and Leathercraft have to say about not using plywood if it really is stronger. I suspect there is more to the story.
    Last edited by sofa123; 09-02-2010 at 08:40 PM.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Restoration Hardware Sofa & Alteratives

    First, I think that at a basic level Duane is correct about plywood. If I go to Home Depot and compare the flex of a piece of solid hardwood to a piece of equally thick plywood, I will find the plywood to be easier to bend and flex. But at the same time if I apply enough force to bend or flex the hardwood it will split or fracture. The hardwood will also be less dimensionally stable, although if that were the end of the story we would build everything with MDF. But that's not the end of the story. Thicker boards and thicker plywood are both more rigid. Thinner boards? If I want to bend plywood around a curved frame, I can select a grade and thickness that will bend. If I want to bend hardwood in a similar fashion, I'll be steaming it first and hoping it doesn't split.

    If you go with thick enough, quality plywood, the article you link offers valid points. You are much less likely to encounter a hidden defect that causes the wood to fail. (This goes both ways. Even softwood, if thick enough, is difficult to break - if you don't believe me, grab a 2x4 and bend or twist it until it breaks at a knot hole. If you somehow manage that, try a 4x4.) So yes, I do believe it's possible for a furniture maker to build a solid frame for a sofa using plywood for the vertical spans.

    That said, a recent comment from a cabinetmaker comes to mind:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cutting Corners
    The difficulty arises when people decide to go beyond the practical and begin cutting into the quality of the cabinets themselves. So, a full 3/4″ back becomes a 1/2″ back becomes a 1/4″ back, each reduction being sold on the basis of being “every bit as good.” Screws are replaced with nails and then staples.
    I'm also reminded of a custom piece of furniture my parents had made. Not even close to John Buchanan's work, but quite solid. The drawers are dovetailed, which would be great if they weren't plywood. Dovetailing plywood increases the risk of delamination and tear-out. A tongue and rabbet joint would be more sensible - but conversely that's a joint you would not use with solid wood.

    The point is, it's great to say "plywood can be superior" or "dovetail joints are a mark of quality", but you need to understand the context. And you further need to understand how your manufacturer translates that theory into reality. If the furniture frame would be solid as a rock with 3/4" plywood for vertical spans, but they're using 1/4" plywood because it's a lot cheaper, you're going to see the flex that Duane has observed. I have a comparatively inexpensive sofa in my living room that has a lot of plywood in it, but that has not given it special resistance to the "dynamic load" imposed by my five-year-old - because the furniture maker cut corners with the frame. As with Duane's experience, it had more flex from day one than any of my H&M pieces.

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