Why Apple has so many fans

[aaron]

First, I never once mentioned Microsoft. As I stated, I own both an iPhone and an iPad (I'll happily post a picture of each with this webpage up if you doubt me and you'd like to continue labeling me without having any clue of who I am).

Um... it didn't occur to you that I was describing Ed Bott, the author of the "Microsoft Report" to which you linked?

Second, as to the malware issue, shouldn't Apple be somewhat at fault for lulling their users into a false sense of security by consistently telling their user-base that Apple products cannot get viruses or malware?

Where can I find any statement by Apple that its products cannot get viruses or malware? Recent or historic?

If you read the article, as negative as it was, it stated that Apple does instruct its contractors to provide general information on malware and anti-virus software; just not to get into specifics. Duane, as you might note, is one person, not 50% of visitors to the counter, was at an Apple Store as opposed to calling a telephone support line, and was dealing with an Apple Store employee and not the employee of a third party contractor, and the problem could be resolved within a couple of minutes as opposed to through a protracted session of phone support, and in addressing Duane's issue they did not have to forego giving good service to other customers (most notably those whose problems were not self-inflicted). They were thus able to deal with his situation differently. Also, as should go without saying, if 50% of customers coming to Apple Stores expected new hardware after breaking their computers, the outcome would have been different - as nice as it would be, in a competitive marketplace companies cannot provide that level of support and stay in business.

However, the cult status they seem to have attained (where they can step on customers and call it a feature) never ceases to baffle me.

All companies, including Apple, have their problems, and Apple has committed plenty of mistakes over the year. Duane's example, though, is an example of very good customer service. Yours is an example of customers getting a bit more than what they paid for - whatever you think of Apple's approach, many other companies, called about something that isn't covered by a care plan, would simply end the call - which means it's actually not a good example of Apple providing bad service.

[Matthew]

Um... it didn't occur to you that I was describing Ed Bott, the author of the "Microsoft Report" to which you linked?

Ok, but I wouldn't consider him a fanboy either. He's been using a Mac in addition to his PC recently and has been critical of Microsoft, stating at times that they need to be more like Apple.

Where can I find any statement by Apple that its products cannot get viruses or malware? Recent or historic?

The best example of recent memory would be there Mac vs PC ads:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TABh...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQb_Q8WRL_g
Their own website used to be very absolute in their statement that Macs don't get viruses/malware/spyware and so you didn't need an external antivirus tool, though to their credit they have over the past year or so softened that statement and now state that they don't provide 100% protection and an external tool can be useful.

All companies, including Apple, have their problems, and Apple has committed plenty of mistakes over the year. Duane's example, though, is an example of very good customer service.

I don't disagree, and Apple is ahead in customer satisfaction numbers. A lot of that has to do with having an in store presence (even if Apple doesn't resolve a problem, I think people are in general happy to have an actual person to go talk to as opposed to being told no over the phone). For that reason alone, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest a Mac to someone who is less tech savvy. However, I do disagree with your statement that the malware issue was an example of good customer service. The malware story annoyed me to no end. It took about 3 weeks for Apple to finally acknowledge there was a problem (and provide a link to get details on how to fix it), which for security issues is simply too long. Their normal operation is to essentially ignore the problem until they can fully research it, determine what is really and fault, and provide a calculate responses (the whole "you're holding it the wrong way" deal with the iPhone 4 is a good example of this). In general, while I find that a little annoying, I don't have any real issue with that approach. However, I felt they needed to be further ahead of the game when it came to the malware. Right or not, many of the people I know that own Macs bought them because they believe that they don't have to worry about viruses or malware (a story that, even if they didn't directly state, Apple certainly insinuated to be true). When you have such a large portion of customers having an issue with your product (whether it was directly Apple's fault or not), I would have expected them to be more forthcoming about how to correct the specific problem (and at the time there were several sources out there with detailed instructions on how to do that - I would have been happy if they'd just pointed people towards one of those).

[aaron]

If an occasional criticism of the product you like, or an occasional compliment of a competitor's product, means that somebody is not a fanboy, then there are few to no fanboys in the world.

I'm not sure what you mean by " It took about 3 weeks for Apple to finally acknowledge there was a problem". I haven't followed this issue, but by definition "malware" is always a problem - hence the prefix "mal" (as in "bad" or "malicious"). As it is intentionally installed, it bypasses security measures meant to prevent unintentional or surreptitious installation of software. You have pointed to ads that imply that viruses aren't a big concern on Apples, fair enough, but I'm not seeing or hearing any mention of malware.

I don't want to repeat myself, but again, Apple did provide general information on steps callers could take to protect themselves. What it would not do is let people with a self-inflicted problem not covered by AppleCare, that could be solved (for some people) over the phone only with a lengthy support discussion, prevent them from helping AppleCare customers who had problems covered by AppleCare. You have not suggested how it would be possible for the phone centers to provide the enormous level of support these calls would require without crippling their ability to serve the needs of customers with problems covered by the plan - arguing that Apple should somehow "Make the pie higher" are great, but should be tied in some small way to reality, no?

Do you have an example from somewhere in the history of the computer industry in which a company did what you're asking of Apple?

[Matthew]

If an occasional criticism of the product you like, or an occasional compliment of a competitor's product, means that somebody is not a fanboy, then there are few to no fanboys in the world.

I guess when I hear the term "fanboy" I think of someone who defends their product regardless of the criticism and is never will to accept that anything is wrong with it or that a competing product may be superior. I know plenty of people like that (not just Apple/Microsoft, but a wide range of companies). In fact, I work with two guys (one a staunch supporter or Apple, the other of Android) neither of whom have once uttered a criticism of "their" product nor give a compliment towards another product. It is those type of people who get on my nerves. If you're a fan of a product, great, as long as you're able to acknowledge that no product is perfect. Apple just seems to have a higher percentage of these fanboys (I think some of this has to do with Apple being the "underdog" for many years, you see a similar thing with supporters of the Opera browser).

I'm not sure what you mean by " It took about 3 weeks for Apple to finally acknowledge there was a problem". I haven't followed this issue, but by definition "malware" is always a problem - hence the prefix "mal" (as in "bad" or "malicious"). As it is intentionally installed, it bypasses security measures meant to prevent unintentional or surreptitious installation of software. You have pointed to ads that imply that viruses aren't a big concern on Apples, fair enough, but I'm not seeing or hearing any mention of malware.

Malware is always a problem, certainly. I'm referring to this specific instance (the MacDefender program). For about three weeks Apple instructed their reps not to provide any sort of assistance with the problem. After the outcry became loud enough (at one point the Apple support forum was overrun with people trying to get help with issue), they finally posted a step by step guide on how to remove MacDefender (other sites had posted similar instructions weeks earlier). This isn't unusual for Apple, but that's my point (and what annoys me about them). A couple years ago, countless people reported that new MacBooks were cracking. Apple refused to honor warranty repairs on these claiming that they were user caused (even though there was countless evidence to the contrary). They had the issue with the broken iMac displays that the ignored for years until last year when they released a new version that they announced "fixed" the issue that they had previously said never existed. Add that to the iPhone 4 "death grip" issue, the MacBook discoloration problems, etc and you have a general theme of Apple refusing to act until they are forced to. Maybe I'm just sensitive to it because I'm the one friends/family come to when they have these issues and can't get help from Apple. I won't pretend that Apple is the only company to act this way, but when I suggest to someone that they should buy an Apple product (and pay the premium) because of the extra support you can get from them, it does annoy me when Apple fails to meet that.

As for the ads. Fine, they only specifically state that Macs don't get viruses or spyware, but those are types of malware (which includes viruses, worms, trojans, spyware, adware, etc). Maybe we're just playing a semantics game here, but when a general user hears those commercials, they think they are safe from all sorts of malware. I think that irresponsible of Apple (especially if they are going to refuse to help when a user gets that sort of problem).

Do you have an example from somewhere in the history of the computer industry in which a company did what you're asking of Apple?

Just anecdotally (maybe there's a published/documented instance somewhere, but not that I'm aware of offhand). A few years ago my mom's laptop (I think it was a Dell, but I don't remember for sure) had gotten overrun by various malware (nothing particularly insidious, just launched popups everywhere and generally slowed her computer to a crawl). As I mentioned above, normally I'm the goto tech support for these types of things, but my parents had just recently moved overseas so it wasn't really possible at the time. She called Dell (or whichever company made the laptop) who proceeded to spend about an hour walking her through steps to clean it up (which ultimately ended up being just to restore from a backup). Many years ago I had a similar experience with Dell when a program I installed conflicting with/disabling my network card's drivers. Ultimately, Dell couldn't help me in that case and I had to find the solution myself, but at least they made an effort (I don't want to insinuate that Dell's perfect by any means, they certainly have their issues with customer support - a lot of it tied to offshoring their callcenters).

[AZJoe]

I guess when I hear the term "fanboy" I think of someone who defends their product regardless of the criticism and is never will to accept that anything is wrong with it or that a competing product may be superior. I know plenty of people like that (not just Apple/Microsoft, but a wide range of companies). In fact, I work with two guys (one a staunch supporter or Apple, the other of Android) neither of whom have once uttered a criticism of "their" product nor give a compliment towards another product. It is those type of people who get on my nerves. If you're a fan of a product, great, as long as you're able to acknowledge that no product is perfect. Apple just seems to have a higher percentage of these fanboys (I think some of this has to do with Apple being the "underdog" for many years, you see a similar thing with supporters of the Opera browser).
.

That is indeed the definition of fanboy IMO.

[aaron]

Again, the distinction is between software that comes onto the system by virtue of a security weakness (viruses, worms, etc.), a problem that appears to be supported by AppleCare, and software installed by a user who doesn't understand what he's doing but whose problem is not covered. It's a bit like filling your gas-powered vehicle with ethanol instead of gasoline, then expecting the manufacturer to replace your engine under warranty - you brought about your own injury and it won't be covered.

If we go anecdotal, it won't take you long to find complaints about Dell's failure to support its products, even for customers who have paid for additional support. You, yourself, brought up Apple's enforcement of the limits of its service policy when Duane introduced an anecdote - you can't have it both ways, can you? (You want a picture of me writing this post from my Dell notebook? Seriously, I own two Dells and have owned several before, as it's a matter of price point and quality as compared to most other Wintel manufacturers, but my customer service anecdotes aren't the type they would like me to publicize.)

The funny thing about Apple fanboys is that I've been using Apples since the 1980's, I've been involved in online communities since the late 1980's, I know a ton of people in the tech world, I know people who are among the first to pick up any new Mac product, and yet considering that they're supposedly all over the place, I've never met an Apple fanboy of the type you describe. You've met one, so I guess that means there's at least that one.... No, really, I expect that there are more - but with due respect to stereotypes, they're a rare bird.

[Matthew]

The vast majority of malware (be is a virus, spyware, etc) on a computer is due to the negligence of users. Most viruses are spread by someone downloading something they shouldn't. In general, no one is sneaking into their iGarage overnight and filling their iCar with ethanol. Viruses exist because users are negligent (mainly they are tricked into clicking something they aren't supposed to, but they're still the ones that set it off). I wasn't aware that AppleCare covered any viruses/malware/etc, regardless of how it got onto the machine (though I don't own a Mac so I'm not really familiar with what is covered on them).

I specifically stated that Dell isn't perfect when it comes to customer support. You asked for examples of a company providing the support I'm asking from Apple, I provided a couple. I'm not naive enough to think that any public company truly cares about their customers to the point that they wouldn't sell them out if it benefited the bottom line (most "good deeds" provided to customers by a company are calculated attempts to breed consumer loyalty and encourage future sales, not just because they are nice). I don't fault this by any means, but Apple/Dell/Microsoft/whomever is out to make the most money it can for its shareholders, and that means that customers are going to get stepped on from time to time (none of these companies have 100% customer satisfaction ratings).

I actually know several Apple fanboys. My roommate from college was one (he was a very early Apple fanboy - I haven't talked to him in years, but he works for Apple these days so I assume he's still one). The above mentioned co-worker is one. Certainly they're in the minority compared to the larger user base (I'll use my mom as an example again - she uses a mac, but ultimately couldn't care less who makes the machine provide it just works), but they exist. Maybe it's because I work in the tech sector that I meet so many of them, but I run into them regularly (I seem to meet mostly Apple and Android fanboys these days, not so much fanboys of other companies). I'm fairly certain if I shouted "Apple sucks" or "Android sucks" at a conference I'd be lucky to escape with my life.

When I first started getting into computers in the 80s, I used Apple machines (Apple IIe and then a IIgs back then). I can't say I ever really knew an Apple fanboy at that point. It wasn't until I was in college (I bought my first non-Apple machine my freshman year of college) that I started meeting them. These days they seem to have exploded (I think fanboyism in general has exploded).

[drcollie]

The term 'fanboy' is what we used to call an 'brand enthusiast' many years ago. Today, its used as a derogatory label indicating someone who takes the corporate or brand feed as the gospel truth, and on the verge of not being able to think for themselves. While I am occasionally stuck with that label by my friends on brand products I happen to like (Hancock & Moore, Snap-On Tools, Nikon Cameras, Porsche Automobiles, and yes...Apple products), the truth is these companies deliver a superior product day in and day out through hard work, uncompromising standards and engineering. While everything they make may not be golden, in general you can't go wrong spending your hard-earned money on what they make. Reputations are earned, not marketed.

[AZJoe]

The term 'fanboy' is what we used to call an 'brand enthusiast' many years ago. Today, its used as a derogatory label indicating someone who takes the corporate or brand feed as the gospel truth, and on the verge of not being able to think for themselves. While I am occasionally stuck with that label by my friends on brand products I happen to like (Hancock & Moore, Snap-On Tools, Nikon Cameras, Porsche Automobiles, and yes...Apple products), the truth is these companies deliver a superior product day in and day out through hard work, uncompromising standards and engineering. While everything they make may not be golden, in general you can't go wrong spending your hard-earned money on what they make. Reputations are earned, not marketed.

What separates someone who just likes xx product vs yy, and a true "fanboy" IMO is being able to see it for what it is, both positive and negatives, and take legitimate criticism. Nothing is perfect, and there is usually some degree of give and take with everything. Additionally it helps when you have experience with multiple products, before forming some sort of brand loyalty.

You didn't just come to the conclusion of H&M's superiority on a whim. How many different brands of sofas have you seen, owned, sold, etc?

Strip enough bolt heads, and you will learn to appreciate a well made wrench.lol


Some people literally have NO experience with an object other then brand X, yet they will argue up and down against any differing opinions, even when posed with valid points.

I love cars, and have my preferences, but yet also know their weaknesses.. Some people get so wrapped up in a certain brand, they can't accept anything negative about it at all.

PS. I am thinking of jumping off the Canon bandwagon to test the Nikon waters..lol

[Briant73]

Personally I have had much better luck with other products than Apple in my lifetime for my use but having said that whatever product you use if it does what you bought it for and the company who produces it supports it, you got a winner. Their products are good but you do pay a premium and yet ipod and iphone are so well marketed that people use them as names for any product in the same field. Right now they are a bulletproof brand that even when they do have a mishap that would hurt other companies they just keep chugging along. I wonder how many other companies could release a phone that lost the signal because of the way a user was holding the phone which could cause a loss of call and that company at first denied the issue, then blamed people for holding the phone wrong, then released a rubber cover as the fix and yet the stock price keeps going up!

I have bought things made by companies that people swear up and down are great and do no wrong and yet I am the atypical owner who has problems with the product and/or poor customer support. Yet on the other hand I have bought items that are not well regarded or the companies aren't well liked and yet those products/companies have been great for me.