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Thread: Trying to find the right brand

  1. #1
    borzoid Guest

    Question Trying to find the right brand

    I am ready to replace my 10 year old leather set. Basically if I could get the exact same set again I would but the company that made it stopped production in North America.

    The biggest problem I am finding is getting a combination of elements similar to my old set in an approx 90 inch long sofa. Seat Height/depth rolled arm height and cushion firmness.

    I've found a few I like the look of at my local stores but they are all either cushy soft that you sink into, or so low that my old knees can't get out of it. Some brands give seat/arm measurements online but firmness is a guessing game. I read in this forum that someone should have requested a different core cushion in a set they ordered, but I can find no manufacturers that actually mention that as an option. I would order online if I could. Oh and most sites don't say if cushions are attached or not. I absolutely need an attached cushion (not velcro).

    Sadly I am also on a budget. Since I need two full sofas and a large chair, I need to keep the sofa price under $1000 each. I do not want to finance and want to keep this in my cash budget.

    Do the experts here have any suggestions on a reasonably priced brand that offers the option to choose a firmer cushion core in an attached cushion? I appreciate any input you can offer.

  2. #2
    hglaber Guest

    Default Re: Trying to find the right brand

    The only sub-$1000 leather sofas I've ever seen were in the big-box-type or discount furniture stores. They are generally made overseas, making customizations logistically impractical. I suspect what you sit is what you get in that price range. I'm just a furniture fan though. Perhaps the pros will have other ideas.

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Trying to find the right brand

    When buying an inexpensive leather sofa keep in mind that the leather is a huge part of the cost. If you pay $1000 for a leather sofa you are probably getting a sofa construction that is equivalent to a $599 sofa in a fabric.

    Jeff Frank
    Simplicity Sofas

  4. #4
    borzoid Guest

    Default Re: Trying to find the right brand

    I know I can't afford top quality, I should have made that clear.

    Could anyone here at least tell me how to read "cushion density" numbers? I have seen labels for cushion desnity from 1.6 to 2.2 - which is firmer, the lower or higher number?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Trying to find the right brand

    Shop premium brands used on Craigslist before you buy Chinese junk. That's your two options in your price range. A 5-year old Hancock and Moore sofa for $ 1,000 still has 20 good years of life in it, maybe more. A new Chinese Leather sofa for $ 1,000 will last about 18 months. You have to get into the premium brands before you can start specifying cushion density. And there is a wide range in the quality of the foam, its not all the same.

    For example, a Hancock and Moore piece will come from the factory with a DuPont Qualux Core of 16 oz density. If someone asks for firmer we move then up to a 21 oz density (no charge). If they want firmer still we can go to 28 oz, but I caution most against doing that. After 28 oz, you have to sign a waiver - because its going to feel like a park bench (hard top ottomans are 41 oz)
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Trying to find the right brand

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    A new Chinese Leather sofa for $ 1,000 will last about 18 months.
    That's not entirely fair. My sister bought some sharp-looking Chinese furniture that I expect will last her many years - because theyr'e too uncomfortable to actually sit on.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Trying to find the right brand

    Quote Originally Posted by borzoid View Post

    Could anyone here at least tell me how to read "cushion density" numbers? I have seen labels for cushion desnity from 1.6 to 2.2 - which is firmer, the lower or higher number?
    Cushion density actually has nothing to do with firmness. This is a misconception among both consumers and many retail salespeople who have not been thoroughly trained. Cushion firmness is measured through ILD ratings. A soft cushion generally will have an ILD rating of around 22-24, medium firmnesses 26-28 and very firm cushions 30 or more. Even here, however, ILDs are not consistent. There are many variables including thickness of the cushion. A 6" thick polyurethane cushion with a density of 1.8 and an ILD of 28 will feel completely different from an 8" thick Qualux cushion with the same specifications.

    Retail salespeople are usually more familiar with density ratings than ILD ratings but they do not really understand what is being measured. In general the minimum density you want for a residential grade cushion is 1.8. Anything less than that and you get a cushion that will break down too quickly. Commercial or Institutional quality cushions generally range from 2.0 to 3.0. These will hold their shape and resilience over a longer period of time but are not generally engineered for comfort.

    There is very little consistency in these measurements among different types of foams. For example an 8" thick HR (high resilience) Ultracel foam with a density of 1.8 and an ILD of 26 will generally hold up far better and feel considerably firmer than a 6" polyurethane foam with a higher density and a higher ILD (firmness) rating. If you look just at the numbers you get a completely erroneous impression of how the two different cushions compare.

    Add to that the fact that some cushions use multiple foam densities and various layers of polyester or down padding on the top and bottom of the foam, and the numbers really don't have much significance for the casual shopper. All you can really go by is the feel of the cushion, the warranty offered and the general reputation of the seller.

    Jeff Frank
    Simplicity Sofas

  8. #8
    borzoid Guest

    Default Re: Trying to find the right brand

    Thank you Jeff, the numbers definitely don't tell the story I guess. Good to know.

    I will look at H&M and see what I can find. I know that you may not be able to name all manufacturers here and I don't want to name any when I shouldn't. But if you can, what other quality companies should I be looking at?

    I doubt I could get two matching sofa's on craigslist

  9. #9
    Scott M Guest

    Default Re: Trying to find the right brand

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    Shop premium brands used on Craigslist before you buy Chinese junk. That's your two options in your price range. A 5-year old Hancock and Moore sofa for $ 1,000 still has 20 good years of life in it, maybe more. A new Chinese Leather sofa for $ 1,000 will last about 18 months. You have to get into the premium brands before you can start specifying cushion density. And there is a wide range in the quality of the foam, its not all the same.

    For example, a Hancock and Moore piece will come from the factory with a DuPont Qualux Core of 16 oz density. If someone asks for firmer we move then up to a 21 oz density (no charge). If they want firmer still we can go to 28 oz, but I caution most against doing that. After 28 oz, you have to sign a waiver - because its going to feel like a park bench (hard top ottomans are 41 oz)
    This question is for the Dr. I have been seriously considering one of the leather sectionals sold by Pottery Barn. I came across some of your comments here in the forum re: PB furniture . Went and looked/sat in the store models and they were felt comfortable and looked and felt substantially "solid" to my untrained furniture senses. The website states kiln-dried wood(no specific mention of hardwood) and sinuous springs. One employee stated they are better because you wont get the "popping" of coil springs Further research showed PB furniture is, or was made by Mitchell-Gold, a purportedly reputable, higher quality mfgr. Not looking for high end/pricepoint stuff where I'll have assumed room temp before it wears out as I am pushing 60 already. Just something made in USA (PB boasts somewhere in NC, Hicory I think) that will hold up for at least 10 years of occasional use. I will press the "design consultants" for more specific construction details....

    Just how bad can PB stuff be? Any comments would be appreciated.

    Thanks from a brand newbie

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Trying to find the right brand

    Ah...I'm not a doctor, though my mother probably wishes I had become one. Those are simply my first and middle name initials.

    I have a saying in this business that I started quoting about a decade and a half ago "Everything looks good when its new". However the question becomes 'How does it hold up over time?' That's the acid test. Even the cheapest of the cheap stuff looks decent right out of the box. Years ago Pottery Barn was some of the worst product you could buy and Smart Money Magazine did an article on it, which is on the web in a few places such as here:

    http://iconceptsllc.com/potterybarnUNSTUFFED.html

    They have always sub-contracted their builds out and perhaps they changed direction after that scathing expose in 2006...I'm not sure who builds for them now. Mitchell-Gold is decent, not top of the line, but OK. I am amused at the spin the PB employee is putting on suspension springs and how sinuous springs are superior to 8-way hand tied....lol. That's a good one, not heard that before. To put that in perspective, its like Five Guys is telling you their hamburger is superior to the New York Strip at Morton's ....

    This off the PB Website:

    Kiln-dried hardwood frame with a solid foam-core seat cushion wrapped in lofty padding is supported by high-gauge steel sinuous springs.

    Now the missing operative word you are looking for is SOLID, which should be right in front of the word 'hardwood'. Do they or don't they? I suspect its plywood based, but I'd need a PB sofa in front of me for about 45 seconds in order to tell for sure.

    That's all I have for you on that, but will leave you with this thought. I have never - EVER seen top quality furniture for sale in any of the trendy mall-like furniture stores (Pottery Barn, Restoration Hardware, Arhaus, Crate and Barrel, Anthropology, etc). At best its mediocre, at worst they should be ashamed to sell it. Mall rent is very costly, stores that carry premium furniture such as mine can't afford the square footage charges of the prime retail real estate, our profit per sq ft is too low. So that tells you that anything in those stores is high-margin and my $ 3K sofa will blow away their $ 3K sofa because mine has the money in the build, not the real estate location.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

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