H&M Leather Failure

[yogi]

The recliner was returned a week ago March 2013. The chair had the defective leather replaced. This process started last year Feb. 2012 with the repair of the leather on the foot rest. The repair failed since the white spots appeared back within a few months. The leather color was also wearing off on other places of the chair, which is why the chair was sent back to H&M in Sept 2012. I had to remain vigilant and pursued getting the chair fixed. I was told the wearing of the leather was due to the customer but the leather color also was wearing off on a location where the cushion contacted the chair so it has nothing to do with cleaning, chemicals or skin oil. In my opinion the leather was defective. I have not owned a leather jacket, shoe, car seat or leather furniture that this happened too. Maybe the leather is processed differently but for furniture which gets used by human being daily it should not deteriorate this quickly especially for something that is this expensive. From my understanding this has happened to others in the past but is not common. The chair looks like new I’m pleased and hope the chair holds up. This should not have taken 6 months to make it right.

[drcollie]

No other maker on the planet would have re-leathered a chair that was over a year old when you began the complaint process and also do it at no charge to you. The stated policy is that all covers (leather and fabric) are not warrantied - and that is the industry standard. My suggestion is that instead of saying "this should not have taken 6 months to make it right" is that you should be giving your selling dealer (which was not my store, btw) and Hancock and Moore praise for doing this for you at no cost. I suspect you didn't even pay the 2-way freight on it - and someone had to absorb that cost as well. Neither the dealer nor the maker can control the environment this is used in, and that is why covers are not warrantied in the business. They did you a great favor on this piece if you want to know the truth of it all.

[Rick H.]

Thanks again for your help on the B & Y cylinder for the tilt back.

Now, onto my second furniture issue. I have the same problem as in this thread with a recliner. The wearing off of the painted leather occurs where my hands rest on the ends of the armrest. Rather than sending this back to the dealer and having them charge me for shipping back and forth to the manufacturer, what is your opinion of bringing in a leather restoration tech? Wouldn't they do the same thing as the manufacturer plus they would be local so they may stand up for their work? Thanks in advance.

[drcollie]

My pleasure. B-Y won't take a piece back to repair / touch up - only H&M does that to my knowledge, all other companies will suggest you buy a new piece. So yes, you will have to contact with a local person who specializes in that sort of thing to fix your existing leather cover. They can do a decent job - remember to keep it clean and conditioned and that will virtually eliminate that happening in the future.

[leather questioner]

My Hancock and Moore Journey Document Leather sofa was delivered November 15,2012. There was nothing included regarding cleaning products, but I was so happy with my new sofa that I regularly wiped with a damp cloth and an occasional leather wipe thinking that I was doing a great job to ensure it would last for many years. However, within a very short time, the color on the cording developed a "rubbed off" appearance, and over time, there were other discolorations in the seat cushions.
Regarding the cording on the cushions, I first contacted the store where I purchased the sofa and was told to use a brown marker on it. When the other discolorations started showing up, I cautioned my husband about making sure there was nothing on his clothing that could be causing any kind of damage. When these places continued to appear, I wrote to H and M and enclosed pictures of the damage. When I did not receive a response, I called and was told they were scratches. From what I have read on the forum today, these are probably not scratches at all; rather, the painted on color is rubbed away.
H and M recommended I buy products from Leather Solutions to clean the sofa before touching up the damaged parts. I sent pictures of the sofa along with the description on the delivery notice from the furniture store. Although I followed the Leather Solutions directions to the letter regarding cleaning and applying the color, the end result was not even a close match to the original finish. I then called them and mailed a sample of the leather, which had come attached to the sofa, along with pictures of how poorly the color matched. They sent me "new" color which I again applied with the same poor results.
By this time, I had begun researching other solutions to the problem, but before I could find one that was feasible, the leather on one arm tore, and now the other arm is also showing a tiny tear.
My husband loves the comfort of the sofa and is the only one who uses it at night and on weekends. I have had upholstered pieces in the past that lasted years and years while withstanding him, small children,multiple teenagers and occasional pets. I am now at a total loss as to what to do next. At the very least, I believe H and M should have routinely included some information with their products so that I would have known about specific cleaning products or if I had purchased a hide from China or a cover that was sewn in China and sent to H and M.
Judging from this forum, I am not the only consumer with a problem Journey sofa. I do not believe our disappointment is unwarranted considering how expensive the furniture is. Who would buy an $8200 sofa (on sale but still almost half that amount) and not expect it to last?

Please give me your best opinion on what I should do. I am afraid to invest more money in recovering that may not hold up, not to mention being hundreds of miles away from any upholsterer who could do the work.

[drcollie]

Hancock and Moore sends out a small booklet with each piece that details leather care and has the signature of every employee who worked on your piece. These are ALWAYS thrown away by the delivery companies and I have been unsuccessful in getting either H&M to attach them to the pieces themselves or any of the blanket wrap companies to keep them with the pieces, and I have spent hours and hours in the quest to do so. So its rare to get that but if you contact H&M they will send you a replacement on in the mail.

I am no fan of Document leather - and I state that all over the forum. I do not buy it for my floor pieces and if customers ask me about it I will advise them to select another hide. However, its a primary leather in the H&M Town and Country program and as such folks buy it because its price friendly. I find it to be over-processed, and it has a very thin coat of paint on it which keeps it soft and supple. Too much paint, the leather gets hard. As a result of that thin coat of paint, its subject to showing friction wear and complaints such as yours are common with Document. The paint is literally wearing away. All painted leathers are subject to friction wear (i.e., 'scratches') with use. I believe you are seeing the color wear away based on your description. There is no consumer solution to that, you need a professional leather restorer to come into your home, patch the tears and then repaint the hides. You can get a successful restoration hiring a pro to do it, and you probably should go that route. Document is nor particularly prone to cuts or tears, however - that would be something contacting the leather to damage it in your home.

I prefer aniline hides for this reason and others as well. Aniline leathers are dyed, not painted, so there is no color to wear away per se, though aniline hides can be damaged by exposure to sunlight and extensive soiling. However, 90% of all leather consumers feel they MUST have a 'protected' leather (which is painted) because they are told that by so many store personnel that don't know what leather is all about. Some painted hides do better than others, Document series and Antelope are perhaps the two most prone to chipping finishes and friction wear in the lineup, because the paint is on very, very thin on those leathers.

[leather questioner]

Thank you for your reply. Do you have any idea how I could locate a reputable leather restorer? We live in central Texas in a small town. Austin and San Antonio are the nearest sizable cities, about 150 miles from here.

I am wondering if the Leather Solutions color/cleaner damaged the leather to the point of it tearing? There is nothing that would have contacted it on the arms in the place where the major tear is.

I would be appreciative of any input.

[Ci2Eye]

Hancock and Moore sends out a small booklet with each piece that details leather care and has the signature of every employee who worked on your piece. These are ALWAYS thrown away by the delivery companies and I have been unsuccessful in getting either H&M to attach them to the pieces themselves or any of the blanket wrap companies to keep them with the pieces, and I have spent hours and hours in the quest to do so. So its rare to get that but if you contact H&M they will send you a replacement on in the mail.

I am no fan of Document leather - and I state that all over the forum. I do not buy it for my floor pieces and if customers ask me about it I will advise them to select another hide. However, its a primary leather in the H&M Town and Country program and as such folks buy it because its price friendly. I find it to be over-processed, and it has a very thin coat of paint on it which keeps it soft and supple. Too much paint, the leather gets hard. As a result of that thin coat of paint, its subject to showing friction wear and complaints such as yours are common with Document. The paint is literally wearing away. All painted leathers are subject to friction wear (i.e., 'scratches') with use. I believe you are seeing the color wear away based on your description. There is no consumer solution to that, you need a professional leather restorer to come into your home, patch the tears and then repaint the hides. You can get a successful restoration hiring a pro to do it, and you probably should go that route. Document is nor particularly prone to cuts or tears, however - that would be something contacting the leather to damage it in your home.

I prefer aniline hides for this reason and others as well. Aniline leathers are dyed, not painted, so there is no color to wear away per se, though aniline hides can be damaged by exposure to sunlight and extensive soiling. However, 90% of all leather consumers feel they MUST have a 'protected' leather (which is painted) because they are told that by so many store personnel that don't know what leather is all about. Some painted hides do better than others, Document series and Antelope are perhaps the two most prone to chipping finishes and friction wear in the lineup, because the paint is on very, very thin on those leathers.

Why does Hancock and Moore even offer Document? It only harms their reputation and makes consumers unhappy. I understand that leather, like anything, needs to be maintained or it will fail but this leather seems prone to premature failure. It's as if a company like Mercedes-Benz that produces a good product were to put cheap Chinese paint on an otherwise excellent car and needlessly harm their overall reputation. There are other budget leathers that don't seem to have issues so offering Document isn't a must to provide an option at a more modest price point.

As a consumer I'd be unhappy too with such an early failure. I would've expected not to get a 20+ year lifespan from the leather if I didn't condition it but I wouldn't expect failure at 2+ years..

[drcollie]

Usually there are places such as this that will come to the home and do the service. A Google search for your area would be best. Also, check with local car dealers as there are mobile services that go from dealership to dealership repairing leather car interiors for re-sale, etc. The process is the same. I have used these folks before, but there may not be anyone local to you.

http://leathermedic.com/

As for why H&M offers Document, I can tell you that if it were my company it probably wouldn't be in the line. I have had that conversation with them many times over many years and I'm told they sell more of that hide than any other series, and they don't see that many issues with it. However to me - a couple issues are too many, but that's just me. And part of my dislike for the hide is not the issues, but the look of it - it doesn't look like 'real' leather, its been sanded until there is no natural markings left and then painted. Realize too, that I am not necessarily the last word or the definitive word on leather, its just my opinion. Consumers put huge and constant price pressure on dealers to keep the costs down, and with that you see lots and lots of finished leathers in the line and a reluctance to put the better hides in the Town and Country program. And I know when I talk to customers, a large percentage of them think I'm up-selling the better hides to make more money, but the truth is I'm a leather enthusiast and have a passion for nice leather pieces. Still, I am far in the minority opinion and the other 600 + dealers want something that hits price points. The last group of new hides from the Spring Market were mostly the same old boring painted leathers as well, price sensitive.

I broke a cardinal rule of sales today on Document, and that rule is when a customer knows what they want, shut up and write the order. I had a gentleman call this afternoon to place an order and he had all his specs, it would have taken 2 minutes to write it all up. When the sofa he selected was NOT in the promo program and he wanted to order it in Document, I told him there were much nicer leathers he could get at a GR 2 price point. This resulted in a 20 minute phone conversation where I told him why I believed that and other options. This can confuse the customer and even cause them to go elsewhere resulting in loss of a sale for my store, but I feel it important to tell him that if it were my sofa I was spending $ 5K on, I'd get a different leather. At the end of the call we decided to hold off on the order and get more samples, and of course the RIGHT leather to get if the color of Document Tobacco is important is Capri Tobacco (yes, its going to cost $ 1,653 more as a GR 4). Capri is one of the world's great hides and worth it. He thanked me for being honest and giving him advice - we will see what comes of it in a few weeks.

So I am conflicted on the subject of Document. On one hand I don't want to poison the well for everyone on it, but on the other hand I want my customers to have the benefit of my experience and handling literally thousands of pieces in leather over the years. That hide is still an important leather for H&M and you will still see it in the Town and Country program when its revised on July 1st. I have had many customers over the years come back to the store and tell me "I wish I had not tried to save the money and ordered a better hide than Document", but never have I had someone do the opposite, which is order a leather like Capri and say 'Gee, wish I could have that extra $ 1,600 back and the promotional hide instead".

[Ci2Eye]

That's pretty much always the case in life. The price of any good usually only matters to us for a short period of time but the quality will matter for years to come. Sir Henry Royce, founder of Rolls Royce Motorcars, may well have said it best: "Quality will remain long after the price is forgotten."

Obviously we do often forget the price of something well made but most of us can't afford the very finest sometimes so compromises get made which brings me to a question. If an individual had a specific budget and could either get a very fine leather on Bradington-Young (like 9395-48) or an inexpensive leather on Hancock and Moore, like Document, which would be the best option? Is it better to have a good frame and an excellent leather or an excellent frame and a so-so leather? Obviously the original poster has well made furniture with a cover that is failing; the furniture is too good to junk but repairs or recovering will likely be costly. Would they have been better off with a higher-end leather on B-Y?

I personally have H&M and B-Y and find them both to be good but I have higher grade covers on both with Capri on the H&M but if I were trying to meet a target price, I don't know which place I'd compromise but my inclination would probably be to go with American-made B-Y with an excellent cover rather than H&M with a Chinese leather.