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Thread: Lets talk rugs.

  1. #1
    AZJoe Guest

    Default Lets talk rugs.

    I began looking at rugs recently, and I guess I was totally ignorant to how incredible they can be. Some of these rugs, and what goes into them is remarkable.

    With that said, I think I have done a bad thing as now I want nothing more than a fine rug or 3..hah I know it is going to cost me(maybe my marriage at this point..lol) but I think it will be worth it. It is all I can think about at this point.

    Looking around the forum I ran across these pics. Duane can you tell me more about this rug? I love it. I know it isn't for sale, but just curious as to some of the history on it? Do you have any personal favorites when it comes to regions(Turkey, Iraq, etc)?


    I have this area in my front foyer/entry that I would love to find a small-ish rug to hang on the wall. I would also like to get a 6 x 9(or slightly bigger) for my dining table, and one for my living room. Although I will have to do them in stages.

    I picked up this one I found on CL for the mean time as sort of a "placeholder". Nothing too spectacular. Hand made(Indian), probably about 15 years old, PERFECT condition, nice and soft. Ended up getting it for $400 for a 6 x 9, which I thought was inexpensive enough to use until I can find something truly spectacular. I want to take my time on buying a rug, and find something that really SPEAKS to me, so this will do well until then.


  2. #2
    BevoGal Guest

    Default Re: Lets talk rugs.

    AZJoe, did you see the rugs from Turkey post? http://www.myfurnitureforum.com/show...hlight=turkish

    I love those rugs -- so beautiful =) And the one you are asking about above is gorgeous too. I know how you feel as I'd love to begin collecting these fine rugs and must practice my patience! I did buy a Karastan rug (Capri Robin's Egg) to go in my living room (with the Weston Sand Sundance Sectional), and it is my first introduction into fin(er) rugs. It was not extremely expensive and a good one to get my feet wet.

  3. #3
    AZJoe Guest

    Default Re: Lets talk rugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by BevoGal View Post
    AZJoe, did you see the rugs from Turkey post? http://www.myfurnitureforum.com/show...hlight=turkish

    I love those rugs -- so beautiful =) And the one you are asking about above is gorgeous too. I know how you feel as I'd love to begin collecting these fine rugs and must practice my patience! I did buy a Karastan rug (Capri Robin's Egg) to go in my living room (with the Weston Sand Sundance Sectional), and it is my first introduction into fin(er) rugs. It was not extremely expensive and a good one to get my feet wet.
    Yes I have. I really like those 6 x 9's.

    I actually picked up a Karastan for my dining table yesterday. Again, another placeholder. heh Nearly perfect for $200 on CL..haha It is also 6 x 9. Now I need to get some different stuff for ontop of the table, and also a new chandelier.
    Flash

    No flash
    Last edited by AZJoe; 12-03-2012 at 05:09 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Lets talk rugs.

    That rug in my Library is a Turkish Hand-Woven, Vegetable dyed wool that I've had about 15 years now. I'm a big fan of them, and we have about a dozen in our home, so many that there is room for no more. It's art for the floor.

    Rugs are very confusing to buy. There are volumes of books written about them and its like diving down into fine wines - how far into it do you want to get? Certainly there is far more to learn than what I can type out here, and I am a novice when it comes to real hand-made carpet knowledge. However, after selling them in my store for over 20 years, I have picked up some knowledge on them and we can go over some of that here.

    You have two basic types of decorative oriental carpets:

    1) Machine Woven, Processed Wool, Chromium Dyes. These are rugs like Karistan makes. They are uniform in all aspects, a bit dull, and have little or no collectible value. They are the McDonald's Big Mac of rugs. Filling, but basic.

    2) Hand-Woven, Natural hand-spun wool, Vegetable Dyes. These are the good ones that last for centuries, with colors that burst and the hand-made nature that no two are alike. They can be wool on wool, wool on cotton, or if you really want to dig deep into your piggy bank....silk. These are the New York Strips at Morton's.

    A very brief history of rugs:

    Originally these were referred to as Perisan (Iran) rugs, and you will pay dearly for ones made in the 1700's and 1800's and early 1900's that were done by nomadic tribesman in the Middle East. The Spaniards were so captivated by these rugs that they brought them to Mexico and into the American Southwest, where the Native American Indians were also enamored with them and began doing their own variant of them. That's why when you see Navajo rugs, they look similar - because they are. The way these rugs used to be made was the women of the tribe would make and weave these while the men were grazing animals. They would shear the sheep, spin the wool, dye a batch and weave the rugs until it was time to move on. Then the process would repeat. Every time they dyed a new batch of wool they would try to get the colors accurate, but that's nearly impossible so you will see 1/4 of the rug one shade, then another 1/4 slightly darker or lighter, then the next 1/4 a different shade, and so on. This is called Abursh, and you look for it in both antique rugs and modern replicas.

    After WW2, with all the turmoil in the Middle East and Iran being locked out from the world in the 80's, rugs moved to being made in Turkey, and still are today. However, labor costs have gone up significantly in Turkey the past few years so production is being moved to Pakistan, Bangladesh, India and China. The rugs there are decent, but not as good as the Turkish ones. To tell the difference requires an expert - however many rug merchants will sell you a 'Turkish' rug that was really made in India.

    The basic build on a Turkish carpet:

    1) Sheep are locally raised and sheared by the men. Wool is left natural and is unprocessed (which has the side benefit of Lanoilin being in the fibers and dark red wine spills bead right up! It can also make the rugs smell like sheep on wet, humid days though...lol).

    2) Men also dye the wool using plant roots (this is called Vegetable dyes) rather than chemical dyes. This is an exacting process and involves boiling the roots in large vessels to get the colors.

    3) Old women do the spinning of the wool, by hand.

    4) Young girls with nimble fingers do the weaving on the looms. It can take 6 month so make a small 3 x 5 rug and 2 years to make a 10 x 14.

    5) Men shear the rugs when done, wash them in the river, and take them to market to sell.

    How do you buy one of these rugs? Well, first you have to trust your eyes. Look at the rug.... how does it lay on the floor? Do the edges curl? Is the pattern reasonably straight? Is there Abrush? Do the colors pop? How coarse or how fine is the wool? How many knots per square inch? Does the rug really appeal to you - it should because you are buying art. Disregard the sales pitch.....rug sellers would put a used car salesman to shame with their lies. Measure the rug and in your mind do a square footage charge. If the rug is say.... 6 x 9 then that is 54 square feet. An acceptable retail for a nice wool, Turkish rug is $ 50 to $ 90 a square foot based on quality of that particular rug (tribal build, wool-on-wool, coarse knots). So now we know the range should be $ 2,700 to $ 4,860 on that rug. If the rug merchant says 'That rug is $ 10,500 but I will let you have it today for $ 7,900, you know that's a bunch of blather because you have done the math in your head. If its a finely done one, you can buy it for under $ 5K. If it has flaws and yet is still decent, you can get it under $ 3K. You will also find that the closer you get to the exit door, the faster the price will come down. Do not be afraid to make an offer on a rug.

    The beauty of these rugs is that they literally will last for centuries given reasonable care. Vegetable dye rugs resist sun fade much better than chromium dyed rugs and because labor costs NEVER come down, they can - and will - hold their value quite well. Many rugs are either village woven or family woven, and they will often put their 'logo' in the rug somewhere. It may be a star, or an animal figure.....that makes them fun.

    I get most my carpets here in the USA from Woven Legends in Philadelphia. They have some of the best:

    http://wovenlegends.com/

    This past August I was in Turkey and bought (8) rugs in Kusadasi after haggling with the street merchants (you don't stand a chance with them if you're not 100% on your game, they will have you for lunch). I kept one for myself, have sold two and still have five of those in my store. I abandoned my wife and kids and immersed myself in the rugs in that city and looked at thousands...it was a blast! I'd have liked to have kept one of the larger ones myself but I'd have to remove and existing one to make way for it, and I like all that we have so that didn't happen.

    Don't buy a rug on EBAY. I have tried at least ten rugs there and most are heavily repaired, full of pet urine, filthy dirty and poorly made. You have to get your hands on the rug, its the only way. Of the ten I bought on EBAY only one was a bargain and decent the other nine were junk. A good rug merchant will let you try the rug in your home with full return rights - you can't even tell how a rug will be until you get it home and lay it out. Know too, there is a light and dark side to every rug - if you flip it 180 degrees in the room the colors will change.

    Collecting rugs is a lot of fun. Read up, get smart on them, and sally forth to do battle with the rug merchants. I have (15) Turkish Carpets in my home, and here's a foyer shot (taken with a iPhone camera, sorry) that shows (5) in our entry hall.


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by drcollie; 12-04-2012 at 09:52 AM.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  5. #5
    AZJoe Guest

    Default Re: Lets talk rugs.

    Awesome post Duane, thank you. Very informative.

    So you tend to gravitate towards Turkish made rugs, I take it..haha

    I will be sure to check with you, to see your current stock when I am ready to buy something. Or maybe show you some pictures of rugs that catch my eye, and maybe you can find something through your distributor.

    I tend to like stuff like this. Seems to have a warmth to it.




    I have an area in my front entry way where I want to possibly hang one, and on the opposing wall put an H&M bench.

    The biggest thing for me, is realizing a collection like yours is built over many years, and I should not rush into anything.

  6. #6
    AZJoe Guest

    Default Re: Lets talk rugs.

    One other question I thought of. What makes a rug collectable and appreciate? Do modern rugs appreciate or something that is more reserved for antiques?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Lets talk rugs.

    Rugs are decorative fashion items, and as such they trend in and out with time. Its hard to say they are collectible with any certainty but for sure the machine made, chromium dye ones are not. As with anything, its a combination of supply and demand coupled with desirability. While I hesitate to say they are an investment, they do cost more over time - similar to a Rolex watch. So its something you can use and there is value in it should you decide to sell them at a later date. How much value is anyone's guess. Skilled labor never gets cheaper over time, nor do materials. So there is a natural increase in prices over all things handmade for the most part. A good rug is a good rug. Antique rugs from the late 1800's cost a small fortune to buy now if they have good criteria to the build/patterns/colors and are in good shape.

    Rugs you buy because they appeal to you, and you enjoy having them. Good ones will not deteriorate with normal use and if you happen to have a rug, or series of rugs, that are in demand 30 years after you bought them you may get more money for them than you paid for it. Depends on the fashion and design trend.

    I had a call last week for a George Beshore Corner Cupboard from a buyer who said he was willing to pay most any price for one. George is long-gone and we never had that many through the storeas they were $ 4,000 when they were available, and that as a lot for smallish hanging corner cupboard - but what style they have! I think in 15 years of working with George perhaps 13 of the cupboards came through the shop. One of those is in my own living room. The buyer asked if I knew where any of them were and I replied "I have one myself", and I knew of two others locally but those customers have always declined to sell. I was told to name my price, but I don't need the money - and I would miss the cupboard so realistically its not for sale at anything approaching reasonable...$ 6K , $ 8K. etc. So I was not going to look silly by saying $ 15K but before I would sell it I would be in the 5 digits for it. $ 10K or more. So there's an example where the rarity of the piece will set the price - and how much a buyer is willing to pay. Plus my wife hates it when I sell furniture out of our house. . I had a similar call for a New Hampshire Lowboy many years ago....I had one of those in my house, too. I think I only paid $ 900 for it when I brought it home in the late 1980's, and the buyer said he would pay $ 4K for it - so I sold it to him. I STILL hear about that Lowboy and how I should not have sold it.

    So its hard to say on future values. I have collected carpets over 25 years, and of the ones I have we like. It would cost me nearly double to replace any of them with prices being what they are currently, so if someone were to want one I have, I would only sell for replacement cost at the very least.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  8. #8
    MADEINUSA Guest

    Default Re: Lets talk rugs.

    Duane,
    Is the rug shown in the picture ,a 12 x 16 Turkish Serapi design that we recently discussed about?
    It shows a lot better without any furniture on it.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Lets talk rugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by MADEINUSA View Post
    Duane,
    Is the rug shown in the picture ,a 12 x 16 Turkish Serapi design that we recently discussed about?
    It shows a lot better without any furniture on it.
    That one is not in the photo....its behind where I am standing.....
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Lets talk rugs.

    This is where I get most my rugs, and they are all sold by the square foot (different prices per collection). You can browse current inventory from this link. Note that I do not have access to pricing and have to call on each one, so use a factor of $ 60 to $ 90 per s.f. to get your estimate of cost. If you're really serious about one, I can find out for you.

    Just sold two rugs in the past four days, I have to get some more so I'm shopping some right now myself for the store...I normally buy in the ARAS collection as its the most traditional.

    http://wovenlegends.com/carpets/avai...tegory/sardis/
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

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