new CHEVY VOLT

[Briant73]

Well, you might be right. Maybe American makers have improved their quality, and for our sake I hope so. But I'm not ready to find out - that's for sure. The old adage, "fool me once shame on you; fool me twice shame on me" comes to mind whenever I even begin to think of GM, Ford, etc.. So I refuse to ever buy one again, and my advice to anyone else would be to avoid at all costs. Of course, they're not all gonna listen.

I understand your stance and the companies who didn't pay attention to quality and customer ownership probably deserve consumers who feel that way. I would advise new car buyers to do research regardless the brand and it's country of origin checking sites like Edmunds, CR, and message Forums that are specific to that brand/make. Also before a test drive take a list of things to check because of how you drive and utilize a vehicle and see if you can take it for longer than 10-20 minutes if possible. I bet a few salesman thought it was a bit much when I pulled out a tape measure to check rear loading width/height on SUVs I was looking but I have found just because specifications say a ton of cargo room doesn't mean it's always usable because form trumping function.

[drcollie]

I'm pretty heavy into cars myself and I've been reluctant to comment on this blanket statement that "all USA made cars are junk", but I since this thread is staying alive and not disappearing let me say I think that comment is way off-base. It may have been true in the late 70's and 80's but its not true now. I've owned over 100 vehicles in the past 43 years including (9) Ford Pickup Trucks (I have a 2001 F-250 with 153,000 miles on it that I drove to work today and it runs like a Swiss Watch), (3) Chevy pickups, (3) Corvettes, (2) F-350 Cut-way Van Bodies, and a few odds and end domestic vehicles.



I tend to drive imports, mostly European, but would have no hesitation buying a domestic if they had a model I liked. The big 3 are building world-class cars that will stand with any other marque currently made. I've had Japanese cars as well, and don't buy into the myth of their invincibility. Nissan has one of the worst records for reliability of any maker there is, and I've seen some engineering on Hondas that make them extremely difficult to work on and repair - such as the front brakes on a '93 Accord where the rotor is part of the bearing race so they could save a few Yen on the build and to do a brake job on that car is 6 hours on the front end vs. a BMW you can do in 15 minutes per wheel. I know, I've done it.

Fact of the matter is, no maker in 2014 can build a car that is not reliable and competitive. There are simply too many choices out there for consumers and the market is so crowded that they MUST deliver a decent product or they would fail in the marketplace. I have a British car in my garage as well and though there are plenty of people that will crack jokes about cars made in England not running, mine has been fantastic and so well-assembled that its a joy to own and drive.

[earlh]

Okay Duane, I'll bite - lol

So let's see now, you owned over 100 vehicles, 15 of which have been domestic TRUCKS (the Fords, the Chevys, and Cut-ways), another 3 Corvettes (the crème de la crème American car), and a few odds and ends. That's 20% domestic, with nearly 75% of that being trucks not cars. You say you have no hesitation buying domestic if they had something you liked, but they don't. So what does that say about domestics vs. imports when someone like yourself who knows cars inside out has purchased imported cars at the rate of 95%. It says that imports are superior. It's true, I did make a blanket statement about American cars being junk, and yeah maybe it's a bit off, but I can tell you this that just like you, when it comes to cars, I know where I would put my money. Trucks are a bit different and yeah probably okay, but I would still take a Toyota over a Ford or Chevy any day. Didn't I read somewhere about your Toyota Tacoma, Duane? LOL

One more thing, "Fact of the matter is, no maker in 2014 can build a car that is not reliable and competitive" Sure they can. Why stop now. They've done it for 40+ years. They sell cars and loans to people with foolish pride. Then they sell the loans, making more from the loans than the cars. But that's another topic. Don't get me started on Helicopter Ben.

[organic_smallhome]

Oh please. I've already had two recall notices on my 2007 make of a foreign car: the Civic. Overall, my Civic is dependable, but when I trade it in in the next year or so, I'm seriously thinking of buying American. Seven years ago, I was in a 6-car pile-up on the highway (not my fault, btw--I was in the middle). Walked away without a scratch. My car, however--a Saturn, if you can believe it--was totaled. When I went to the tow place to retrieve my things from my car, I asked the guy if he thought my insurance would cover repair to the car. He looked at me like I was crazy and said I must be kidding because there was no way my car was going to be "fixed": the back end had been pushed almost entirely to the back seat. I asked him what kind of car he recommended. He looked at my poor car, and then back at me, and said, "The same one. Looks to me like it did what it was supposed to do. You're walking, aren't you?" I'm liking the sound of the Chevy Volt (I don't drive a lot), or maybe even the Ford Fusion. A German engineer I met from M.I.T. told me that European automobile imports to the U.S. are of lesser quality than the same car in the home country. The branding sells the car, so cutting corners is standard for the American market. Volvo, VW, even mid-level BMWs: the American version all of lesser quality. Volvos don't break down in Sweden, but they do all the time here. The American VW is notorious for unreliability, which is not at all the case in Germany. I took a road trip across the U.S. some years back and came across only three broken-down-by-the-side-of-the-road cars: all BMWs. And it's not just cars. Recently bought a new Oral-B electric toothbrush (made in Germany): turns out, it comes with a cheaper casing and fewer accessories than the same model sold in Germany. Enough already. In my opinion, if one is in the market for a new commuter vehicle today, it makes sense to seriously consider American.

[earlh]

Go ahead, it's your foot. If you want to shoot yourself there, who am I to stop you. You'll be sorry, though. I promise! Two recall notices in seven years? Big deal! What were they for - loose buttons? Wait till you have a go at that Chevy or Ford - prepare yourself for much more than a couple of petty recall notices. Prepare yourself for a nightmare! You'll be in the shop monthly. Then when you go to sell, you'll get nothing. If the Saturn was so great, what prompted you to buy a Honda! I have owned Fords, GMs - all that junk - nothing but headaches. Then in 2007 I bought a Camry and never looked back. It has been the most dependable car I have EVER owned. Other than for routine maintenance, It has never been in the shop, not even once! Not a single problem. Never. Now that's a car my friend. Regarding the toothbrush, yes, Germans make junk, too. But the least of your worries on that Oral-B will be a cheap casing. Wait till you have to buy replacement brushes. Prepare to be raped! Anyhow it's a free country and people are free to do as they choose, within the constraints of their budgets of course, but for myself, I would advise even my very worst enemy against buying a domestic.

[drcollie]

The notion that a maker sends a different product (with shortcuts taken) to a different market is something you can easily break down using logic rather than stereotypes and hearsay. Regarding vehicles, think through it for a moment. A modern car has huge and massive developmental costs per model , so much so that failure of one model can mean ruin for a company. Once you get that vehicle set up for component production, you are not going to alter the content on the build quality to save a few shekels, as that is going to require multiple part numbers and re-tooling to make that specific model component in a cheaper variant. It makes no business sense to do that not only for the complexity, but the costs of being "found out" in a marketplace were they do to that would be devastating. These are mass-produced vehicles, and as such they will set up to make millions of a particular model before they go through a model cycle change. The goal is to sell as many as possible, not try to tweak them for various markets unless required by the laws of that country to do so.

Here's an example. Go try to buy a car today with crank-handle windows and do a power window delete. You can't....and why is that? Certainly the roll-up winder is less costly than motorized, yes? Well, what most people don't know is changing the way the window goes up and down affects the crash rating of the car, and for the USA market the cost of re-certifying a car runs into the tens of millions, so they make it one way across that particular model line. You get Power Windows, standard. It simply costs too much to do the crank variant which most buyers don't want anyways. So they build one standard and make that the way the window goes up and down throughout the model line regardless of the country its destined for.

I'm very heavy into cars / motorcycles / trucks as a hobby and like to dispel myths whenever I can. I also work on my own vehicles and have a massive Snap-On toolbox in my garage as well as a hydraulic lift plus professional grade tools and scanners. I am well-versed in cars as my primary hobby outside of work. Currently among all the vehicles I have (business and private, including my kid's cars) I have: (3) German (2) British, (1) Domestic, (4) Japanese. There is not one more / less trouble-prone than the others. They are machines, and all machines break over time and will need service regardless of the maker. If I get a troublesome vehicle, I simply dispose of it and get something different, often in the same marque. Sweeping generalizations about one vehicle brand/country or another really demonstrate that more than anything else the person making those statements is highly opinionated and speculative but relatively un-informed as to the true nature of the market.

[earlh]

LOL - Duane. 10 vehicles. 1 domestic. Enough said.

[organic_smallhome]

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not quite convinced by the market argument. For example, appliances used to last 20 years--until the implementation of planned obsolescence. People have adjusted to lower expectations, and we're now at the point where we don't really have a choice any more. And the mechanical engineer I spoke with was pretty assertive about the lesser quality delivered to the American market--on the low- and mid-end range of products. I was shocked--although I don't know why. I would love to find a study somewhere where someone randomly took a new VW Passat off an American car lot and compared it, part by part, with the German equivalent. Could be interesting.
-

I'm pretty heavy into cars myself and I've been reluctant to comment on this blanket statement that "all USA made cars are junk", but I since this thread is staying alive and not disappearing let me say I think that comment is way off-base. It may have been true in the late 70's and 80's but its not true now. I've owned over 100 vehicles in the past 43 years including (9) Ford Pickup Trucks (I have a 2001 F-250 with 153,000 miles on it that I drove to work today and it runs like a Swiss Watch), (3) Chevy pickups, (3) Corvettes, (2) F-350 Cut-way Van Bodies, and a few odds and end domestic vehicles.



I tend to drive imports, mostly European, but would have no hesitation buying a domestic if they had a model I liked. The big 3 are building world-class cars that will stand with any other marque currently made. I've had Japanese cars as well, and don't buy into the myth of their invincibility. Nissan has one of the worst records for reliability of any maker there is, and I've seen some engineering on Hondas that make them extremely difficult to work on and repair - such as the front brakes on a '93 Accord where the rotor is part of the bearing race so they could save a few Yen on the build and to do a brake job on that car is 6 hours on the front end vs. a BMW you can do in 15 minutes per wheel. I know, I've done it.

Fact of the matter is, no maker in 2014 can build a car that is not reliable and competitive. There are simply too many choices out there for consumers and the market is so crowded that they MUST deliver a decent product or they would fail in the marketplace. I have a British car in my garage as well and though there are plenty of people that will crack jokes about cars made in England not running, mine has been fantastic and so well-assembled that its a joy to own and drive.

[organic_smallhome]

I didn't buy a Saturn because i knew it was going out of production. It was also never in the shop. Not a problem. Not one. Re the Civic: two recall notices IS a big deal. And no, they were related to a class action suit having nothing to do with "loose buttons." I know plenty of people who drive Fords and they're perfectly happy. It's absurd to dismiss all American "domestic" cars as "junk." There are plenty of junk cars in Europe, too. Ever driven a Skoda? I have. Or one of the ridiculous French cars that are death-traps? I have. Thanks, but no thanks. Toyota makes an excellent product, although lately I hear the quality is not quite as good. Same thing with Honda. But GM also makes an excellent product. And the quality of American cars is going up. Sorry, but I increasingly do not buy into the hype of "buy foreign." It's time that Americans start investing in their own. If I had the money and interest and wanted a high-performance, top-of-the-line sports car, I'd be looking towards Europe. But I don't, so I'm not.

Go ahead, it's your foot. If you want to shoot yourself there, who am I to stop you. You'll be sorry, though. I promise! Two recall notices in seven years? Big deal! What were they for - loose buttons? Wait till you have a go at that Chevy or Ford - prepare yourself for much more than a couple of petty recall notices. Prepare yourself for a nightmare! You'll be in the shop monthly. Then when you go to sell, you'll get nothing. If the Saturn was so great, what prompted you to buy a Honda! I have owned Fords, GMs - all that junk - nothing but headaches. Then in 2007 I bought a Camry and never looked back. It has been the most dependable car I have EVER owned. Other than for routine maintenance, It has never been in the shop, not even once! Not a single problem. Never. Now that's a car my friend. Regarding the toothbrush, yes, Germans make junk, too. But the least of your worries on that Oral-B will be a cheap casing. Wait till you have to buy replacement brushes. Prepare to be raped! Anyhow it's a free country and people are free to do as they choose, within the constraints of their budgets of course, but for myself, I would advise even my very worst enemy against buying a domestic.

[drcollie]

I don't think there is such a thing as planned obsolescence, but that suits folks that like conspiracy theories. I think what happens is that pricing pressure is relentless from consumers, and companies build to a target price point, while preserving their margin. Every company has a margin percentage to make, so at the end of the day they add up all the costs of the production and put a percentage atop that so they can make a profit and stay in business. If the company feels the product is too costly at retail, they will look at ways to take some cost out - and you can only do that two ways 1) Cut out materials 2) Cut labor costs. Reduce either one of those too much and you wind up with sub-par performance on your product and dis-satisfied customers. They are, for the most part, trying to find balance between price and quality. For example, if they determine that 90% of their end users will see a 10-year life span on a car as acceptable, then there is no need to engineer the unit to last 20 years to satisfy the remaining 10 %. Likewise on components - you don't need a transmission that will last 30,000 hours of use if the engine is only going 15,000 hours.

Now in the realm of cars there are certain makers that toss that price/margin out the window and use the best of everything, price be damned. Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc., and not even their entry level cars are less than $ 150K. That's how Hancock & Moore builds leather sofas, or Rolex a watch....they don't skimp on the build or the labor and products like these are not made for everyone. So while they are more costly you DO get the best components and build for your money. Most people, by far, don't care about high-end builds and want a solid utility/everyday product that is respectable, reliable and affordable. That's the mainstream consumer.

I think the current crop of modern automobiles are just wonderful. They are so much better than in years past in all aspects - from safety to drive quality to reliability to efficiency across all the makers. How many here remember points, plugs and condensers and setting your timing with a dwell meter, or cleaning the points with a business card to get it to run (I will tell you a funny story about that at the end of this post*)? Or fussy carbs that flooded and needed float bowls replaced? ABS brakes, Dynamic Stability Control and Traction Control have really helped make cars safe - along with airbags. Plus our cars run clean now, with low emissions - heck, my diesel delivery truck now puts out water as the exhaust, nor more diesel fumes! You want to know what I think the very best car on the market is for most people? A basic Honda Accord. For $ 30K +/- you get a fantastic automobile that is loaded with features and performance, and is decent to drive. And its made in the USA so its actually a domestic! So you can have your import AND made in America with buying an Accord.

********

* I met my future wife 34 years ago in Ft Lauderdale FL just having a casual conversation on the beach on a Sunday afternoon. After a bit, she said she had to go and 'hoped her car would start'. I asked her what she was driving and she said 'A Triumph Spitfire'. Being a British Leyland car guy, I know why the car didn't want to start - dirty points nine times out of ten. So I offered to escort her to the parking lot to make sure it would run and she got in, turned the key and it wouldn't start. I popped the bonnet, pulled out a white business card I had in my billfold, pulled the Distributor Cap and cleaned the points with the business card - it fired right up pretty as you please. She was amazed and I asked if that act of kindness warranted a dinner date, and she agreed....the rest is history. So if that old Triumph had electronic ignition like we do today, I'd have been out of luck.