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Thread: H & M Leather Chair Showing Wear -- What should I do?

  1. #41
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    Default Re: H & M Leather Chair Showing Wear -- What should I do?

    There is no question that formulas have moved to water-based product, and newer coatings do not possess the tenacity of the older, less environmentally-friendly product. That has changed forever, and there is no going back. On a finished (painted) leather, the trick is to not put the paint on so thick that the leather loses it softness and drape. It's easy to load the topcoat up and make it tough with heavy layers, but then it loses its appeal. So coats go on thin, and the thinner it is, the more susceptible it is to either abrasion-wear or small bits coming off (which can look like small white dots). This applies to all leather, from any maker.

    Aniline dyes on the other hand are just that - DYED through the leather, not coated on top. The dye is safe as its vegetable-dye, not chromium, but that is classed as Unprotected leather which scares 90 % of all leather buyers. They want something that is termed Protected. My experience has been that unless you are putting heavy-duty chemicals on the aniline hides like motor oil, bleach, oven cleaner, battery acid, brake fluid, and other things that should not be near upholstery, that concern is largely not warranted. Most water-based stains (but not all) will work themselves out of the hide in a day, or a week, or a couple of months if left alone and not fussed upon. A pure aniline is also susceptible to sun fade. However, they don't friction wear as does a painted hide. You can soil them, but that is different than friction wear and chipping.

    Then we get to price. And that's the real key for most consumers. We are a Wal Mart society as a whole, looking to save the most money on a purchase as possible. So naturally the lower priced leathers appeal and customers can and do recoil at higher price points in the upper grade leathers. I hear that all the time, every day. Also, the best leathers usually have a mild pull-up effect which means they can show pressure marks, and that turns off a lot of people as well who don't understand leather. The best leathers are European, as a rule they make the top tier hides. Those will be GR 3 / 4 /5 in Hancock and Moore and GR 5 / 6 in Bradington Young. But that can mean $ 1,000 over the price of the painted Chinese leather and the pushback on price comes in at that point.

    Here's a photo of the most used piece of furniture in my home, that I took today. We have had this 15 years now, and this is an Italian pure Aniline hide, upper grade on a solid hardwood frame, true 8-way hand-tied suspension. As you can see, while it doesn't look new, it still has lots of life left in it and I have no plans to replace it soon. This was also the sofa the kids were on from ages 5 to 19 in the family room, and it endured a few stains and spills that worked their way out of the leather over time. This was not an inexpensive sofa when new, and I spent the money for a upper class hide, it has more than paid us back many times over. I think most folks would agree this would be acceptable use wear on a fifteen year sofa. Because its aniline, there is no color loss other than some mild sun fade from ambient light in the room.

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    Most finished leathers DO hold up, but once in awhile there is a bad batch that has adhesion issues or accelerated friction wear. Depending on the age of the piece, this *CAN* be evaluated and if the maker and tannery agree, it will be replaced. This is an un-written, non-warranty kind of thing done on a case by case basis. The first thing is the piece has to be returned at customer's expense to the factory for evaluation. Once it arrives, the leather will be sent off to a lab for testing and if it comes back with traces of any un-approved product used on the hide, or a dealer-applied 'protectant' such as Guardian, then the claim is denied and the customer can either abandon the piece or pay to have it shipped back to them. If the lab test comes back clean then they replace the hide and pay to re-ship in most instances. Having said that I would guess in 30 years and thousands of pieces I have had 10 pieces returned like this and in 8 of them the lab test showed non-approved products were used on the pieces - those customers were unhappy with the outcome. The two that were legit were recovered at no expense to the customer.

    There is no easy or 'right' answer to this question. My experience tells me to select better anilines for my own personal use, but I will not push that upon customers as I don't want to get that 5 year old broken down recliner plopped on my sideway with an upset customer demanding I replace it because I made a recommendation that could not hold up to their lifestyle useage. At the end of the day, I cannot know your lifestyle or your usage habits, but for myself personally those European anilines have performed flawlessly year after year - and yes, they cost more.
    Last edited by drcollie; 02-14-2016 at 07:36 PM.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  2. #42
    Tabby Guest

    Default Re: H & M Leather Chair Showing Wear -- What should I do?

    Thanks for sharing your experience, yooper. Yes that would be quite upsetting to have spent that much money and not have it last. I think I'm am definitely swaying away from finished, protected leather. My sister says her leather chair is doing the same thing, and she's pretty sure it's "protected". I think a stain would be less upsetting than flaking off of color.

    I found a 'Journey' sofa only 80 miles away, so I'm going to go take it for test drive. Hoping to make my decision SOON!

    Thanks.

  3. #43
    ldematte Guest

    Default Re: H & M Leather Chair Showing Wear -- What should I do?

    I was browsing through the forum, saw this thread, and felt compelled to share our experience. We too purchased an H&M sofa & loveseat, more than willing to spend a bit extra to get quality pieces. The leather is Upton Cafe, which if I recall, is a pull-up aniline leather. While we totally appreciate the pull-up effect, it is very evident that the leather began flaking away within 12 months of delivery. We are a couple with no children living at home and no pets. We both weigh under 150 lbs and take excellent care of our furnishings. I have been cleaning & conditioning the pieces religiously at least every 6 months since purchase 4 years ago.
    Coincidentally, Upton Cafe was discontinued by H&M - I believe we were the last customers to receive it. Perhaps they knew they had a problem, but were not responsive to ours.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: H & M Leather Chair Showing Wear -- What should I do?

    I have Upton Cafe in my office chair at the store, and it has tolerated hundreds of hours of use, perhaps thousands and has never shown any abnormal wear, I will show it to anyone who wants to see it at the store. I never had any issues with Upton Cafe with any of my customers who bought it, either.

    Flaking of a topcoat is usually (but not always) using an incompatible chemical on the hide and it delaminates the topcoat.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  5. #45
    ldematte Guest

    Default Re: H & M Leather Chair Showing Wear -- What should I do?

    No disrespect intended, Dwayne, but I assure you that we've never used any chemical on the hide other than the recommended cleaner and conditioner. Between cleanings, I dust regularly with a microfiber cloth. Our situation may be an anomaly, but it was not from our lack of proper care.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: H & M Leather Chair Showing Wear -- What should I do?

    I understand. Only an evaluation from Hancock & Moore could tell for sure. You may want to consider sending a casing back to H& M if the problem is severe. I can only speak to generalities in the forum, to really drill down into an issue requires a hands-on inspection and lab testing. If it turns out a hide is indeed defective they are usually very good about restoring the piece, recovering, etc. In the vast majority of cases, however, we do not see defective hides...it's pretty rare.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  7. #47
    yooper829 Guest

    Default Re: H & M Leather Chair Showing Wear -- What should I do?

    Not to drum up an old thread here....just an interesting comment. Regarding the pieces that I discussed in the thread, we are now ready to throw them in the dump and just buy a cheap leather set. They look absolutely terrible...beyond terrible. BY has lost several sales from people that have seen our furniture and vowed to stay clear of them. Just for the heck if it I tried reaching out to BY one last time before I threw them away, explained my situation very calmly and openly and surprisingly they agreed this time to look at pictures and help with a simple diagnosis. I told them that I was not looking for free furniture here, I just wanted their opinion on the color loss to the leather. I was hoping they would actually send a factory rep to come look, or let me send a cushion in for testing. Nope! They asked what cleaners we used, and I replied with what we used which was just a TOUCH of liquid dawn soap in warm water, then rung out hard so the rag was just barely damp, and we did that maybe 3 times in the first 12 mos or so. My reply was....and I quote....." unfortunately that type of cleaning can cause peeling, cracking and fading , we only recommend using a damp cloth with distilled water or to vacuum the leather products off". So I guess the fact that we wiped the leather down with an extremely weak solution of warm water and liquid soap caused the color to just wipe away! Plus we cleaned the entire piece, and the color is gone just where we sit.....I had to laugh. Actually quite embarrassing for BY to even suggest that because there was maybe a drop of soap in that gallon of warm water that it would "attack" the dye and wash it off completely! We're done! Off to shop for Chinese furniture.....

  8. #48
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    Default Re: H & M Leather Chair Showing Wear -- What should I do?

    We can certainly talk to these issues, that is the purpose of the forum. Sometimes there is no easy answer to issues such as this and all I can do is fall back on my experience selling and handling thousands of leather pieces. Same as you would do in your business which I believe you stated was in the coating industry. You go with what you know based on hundreds of experiences....

    Color loss on finished leather is typically caused by either: 1) Usage - primarily friction 2) Sun Damage 3) Improper Cleaning and Treatment 4) Defective topcoat. And I would say that based on my experiences the failure ratios would be Usage (65%), Sunlight (25%), Improper cleaning/chemicals (9%), Defective topcoat (1%). Most consumers will see it otherwise and suspect defective leather 99% of the time, which turns out not to be the case. In thirty + years of selling leather furniture I recall only two instances where the leather was replaced due to tannery defects.

    A finished leather is a painted leather. Paint is applied over the top of the hide. All paint wears over time due to use and exposure, and some to it better than others. It can be the paint on your house, your car, your tennis shoes, or your leather furniture. In leather, the trick is to put the paint on thin enough to maintain softness, yet thick enough to keep durability. Get too much on and the leather feels artificial and plasticy, not enough and you can get faster color wear and sometimes flaking.

    Personally, this is why I like dyed leather or pure anilines (unprotected), The color is dyed into the hide, not coated on top. Keeping it moist and clean means it stay rich looking and build patina over time - there is nothing to friction-wear. However they are not as stain-resistant as the finished leathers and sunlight will really eat up the color on them at a much higher rate than a finished leather and bleach out the color.

    I purchased a brand new Porsche 2.5 years ago, it was over $ 100K. It has the basic leather on it and I am getting terrible wear on the driver's side upper seat bolster, the leather has even 'given way' with holes in it and I can see to the foam cushion. It's a finished leather and the car has been pampered with only 14K miles on it today. Being in the leather industry, I can assure you that I was giving those seats a treatment every 3 months, well aware of the needs of leather. It's deteriorated rapidly and I am constantly repairing the section with professional leather products, and the dealer has refused to warranty it. I expected as much, they cannot control usage or wear and tell me it's the way I get into the car. Could be, but I suspect it's was a weak hide in that area. This winter when I lay the car up due to snow and ice, I'll buy a new upper seat leather casing at the nutty price of $ 950 from Porsche and re-upholster the top of the seat, I expect the new piece will be more durable and if it breaks down again - then I know its the way I'm getting into the car, and its a useage matter rather than a defect. If the new piece doesn't wear - than I know the hide was weak on the original build. Either way, Porsche isn't paying for it and I won't be buying a KIA.

    The only way to get any kind of remedy is to get your dealer involved and see if they will come out and inspect for you, or return it to the factory for evaluation (you will have to pay the shipping) and even then there is no guarantee they will do anything on your behalf other than tell you its a usage issue and send it back. If you did a mail order buy, the dealer is obviously not going to come out and look at it, and sales reps for the company only inspect if their dealer made the original sale. In other words, if you live in Michigan and you bought from North Carolina, then its the North Carolina rep's issue, not the Michigan rep's.

    You can go the cheap Chinese route if you like, I think that's a poor decision. Look in your area for leather restoration services and have them re-coat the sofa is what I would do, basically they will paint it with a specialized product and it should be good to go. I'd certainly do that before I would put it in the landfill and go with Costco or Ashley products.
    Last edited by drcollie; 11-06-2016 at 09:23 AM.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  9. #49
    yooper829 Guest

    Default Re: H & M Leather Chair Showing Wear -- What should I do?

    Hi Duane
    I totally understand where your coming from....and I highly doubt that my leather falls into the "defective" catagory. I know better than that which I why I stated that I was not looking for free furniture here, I just need to understand why the color on the leather has worn away in 3-4 short years. To me it's the type of leather we chose-painted on leather. Trust me when I say this, we have not been hard on this furniture, but we do actually sit in it! It's not in a formal living space where nobody is allowed to sit on it or anything like that. Also my wife is a cleaning fanatic and the leather was not ignored. So my obvious negativity comes from the fact that if painted on leathers are that susceptible to wear then they should not be offered as an option! I spent $7000 on 4 pieces of furniture, and I was under the impression that for that money I was getting a quality piece, and I know that most of that extra money spent was because of the better frame construction, better foam in the cushions, and very little of the extra money was because of the leather. But my point is this, I spent the extra money so the frames and cushions last much longer than imported furniture, the leather should hold up for that longer duration as well.
    Let's use your Porsche as an example, you spent much more than your average vehicle to purchase this. Why? Because of the contents of that vehicle...technology, performance, quality. But the extra money spent didn't give you better paint on the car right? (Well there is better paint quality on a Porsche verses a Kia, mostly in application procedures to have that paint as smooth as glass) my point is if after 3 years the paint started fading really bad, and when asked why this paint is looking so awful to Porsche, they ask how you cleaned it. You reply that you washed your car regularly with a mild liquid soap and water solution and they come back and say aha! Your not supposed to use any soap just plain water or vacuum the finish. Sorry can't help you. And then you hop onto a forum still puzzled as to what you did wrong and a Porsche expert tells you that the paint option you chose was not the best choice, you should have spent more on a different paint that holds up better. So are you not wondering....I washed my car and took care of it...but I find out that the paint on the car was not the type you should have picked and it's normal to have it wear and fade...then why in the world does Porsche offer such a paint option knowing it's not going to hold up??? Silly analogy I know, but that's how I feel! If the painted on leathers wear off in 3-4 years then why in the world are they even an option?? I know I'm extremely negative on this, but at the same time I feel I have the right to be I looked into recoating the furniture but I feel that's like putting lipstick on a pig. The new coating is only as good as what is underneath, so if I recoat it will it still wear off because the coating underneath is failing? That and the closest place that can do the job is 200 miles away, so I'm having a hard time justifying a 400 mile round trip, the cost involved to have it recoated, only to have this start all over again in 2-3 years.
    Lastley, my reference to purchasing Chinese furniture is this, I spent $7000 on furniture that lasted 4 years. I purchase Chinese furniture for a 1/3 of the cost and it lasts 4 years. I repurchase said Chinese furniture and again get 4 years from it. Last time I purchase the Chinese furniture and it gets me 4 years. Simple economics show that for the same $7000 I now get 12 years worth of furniture use instead of 4. It's pretty tough to argue that one.
    I guess for my own sanity I just need to let this issue go, again I do understand your side of things Duane, I really do. Hopefully you can see where I stand as the consumer here, and why this is so frustrating to me.
    Do you honestly feel that if I had purchased H&M from you (or anyone for that matter) that I would be having this same
    issue? I'm very serious in that I'm just getting rid of these pieces, and I might be open to looking at H&M if you feel this issue would not be an issue with your flagship brand. I'm not wanting to purchase anything from China these days, and would love to keep my purchase dollars here in our country. That's one thing with my BY purchase is that I was PROUD that I purchased from an American manufacturer, my dollars went to American workers.
    Thanks for your time Duane, your opinions are appreciated.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: H & M Leather Chair Showing Wear -- What should I do?

    I agree its frustrating and the problem at the core is as a dealer - I can't really say why your color has worn off. No one really can from photos, it takes an in-person examination. And therein lies the larger issue - how do you get someone willing to look at it, and secondly if they look at it will they do anything about it?

    Unlike car dealerships where warranties are national, in the world of furniture the Dealer is a customer of the Supplier (in this case B-Y) and you are the customer of the dealer. I don't necessarily agree with that model, but that's they way it is and I can't change that, it's been like that as long as there has been furniture. So the Supplier really isn't interested in talking with you and the primary contact person for any issue is your dealer. I don't know where you bought your B-Y but assuming you didn't get it locally and shopped lowest price and had it shipped in, then that's a difficult arrangement. The lowest price guy is usually the least likely to go to bat for you because he made razor-thin margins and is more focused on making another sale rather than problem-solving (which takes an incredible amount of time). The burden on you as a consumer is to try to find a dealer that will go to bat for you if need be. The lowest price guy is usually not that guy.

    If the dealer is willing to back you on an issue, then its getting the piece(s) back to the factory for inspection. This is not unusual in any industry and when you return something you have to pay the shipping costs or otherwise deliver it to them. That gets pricey in large, bulky items.

    The other issue is the Vendor - even if the Dealer is going to bat for them, some are MUCH easier to work with than others. Bradington Young is not one of those easy to work with and when I have an questionable issue it's like pulling teeth to work on behalf of the customer. Unless it's a clear workmanship defect or part failure they tend to deny things such as color wear on leather, that can be very difficult or impossible to get that resolved with them. Hancock and Moore on the other hand, will give the customers claims the benefit of the doubt and while they don't roll over for every issue, they are much more likely to work on an acceptable solution than B-Y. This is one of the reasons I prefer my long distance customers to buy H&M. If there is a problem down the road and the expense is made to ship back the furniture, then a favorable solution from H&M is much more likely than from B-Y. Covers (leather) never are warrantied so it becomes a grey area and depends on how hard a dealer is willing to push on behalf of a customer and how the supplier responds. More than once I have had to threaten termination of my dealership with B-Y in order to get them to move on a claim I feel was valid and I have never had to do that with H&M. That's something you as a consumer won't ever know unless a dealer tells you - all suppliers are not created equal.

    Failure rates on Chinese-made leather pieces is really through the roof, which is why I don't - and never will - sell it. I don't want unhappy customers and if you buy that Chinese crap I can pretty much guarantee it will happen and in short order.

    Sometimes things just fail for no particular reason and we don't really know why. If you had bought that set from my store, and we were not going to go through the rain dance of returning it to B-Y, I'd cut you a good deal on a replacement set from either B-Y or another maker. That's something I can do as a dealer and don't need the supplier to participate. Yes, you would still have to pay for the new set but I would cut my margins for a repeat customer in a tough situation to help them out. For that reason I would contact your original selling dealer and get to someone in a position of authority and see what they say. Maybe you can get a deal on a replacement?

    I hesitate to name a particular leather that i would say is 'bullet-proof' but in general I prefer pure anilines (which are going to cost more) than coated or finished leathers as they tend to build patina rather than show finish wear with use. They will fade in direct sunlight and can stain, however - so they are not perfect, either. I sell thousands of leather pieces (and have over twenty in my own home) and I would say over time I am less likely to have customers develop issues with pure anilines than finished leathers, provided they keep those anilines out of the UV rays from sunlight (by far the largest damage issue on aniline hides). For example, if someone asked me today what would be the best leather to put on a H&M piece, I would say the Wade series aniline, a price GR 3 which is appx 20% less in cost than a GR 4 where the high-end leathers live. It hits all the marks for softness, appearance, price, and should age very well given reasonable care.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

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