H & M Leather Chair Showing Wear -- What should I do?

[drcollie]

There is definitely some significant pigment loss, far more than i would expect from an 18 month old units. Now, two other questions. 1) Did you buy a 'protection package' from your selling dealer where they applied something to the surface? 2) If not, have you coated the leather with any kind of leather product? if so, that might be your problem. if you have not used (or the dealer used) and chemicals or treatment product on it, then I would say that there is an issue that need further investigating. If I were your selling dealer, I'd be pressing B-Y to evaluate the piece and if consistent with the photos either re-leather or re-place it entirely.

[yooper829]

Thanks for your evaluation Duane....no leather package was purchased and my wife said she cleaned the leather with just soap and warm water after reading that here. Now the hard part, getting Bradington Young to help me out! The leather on the pieces has been discontinued so I'm not sure if they could releather both peices? And I'm sure to get them to replace the pieces will be very difficult I'm going to have my dealer open a case with them and all I can do is try. Thanks again for your help!

[drcollie]

Here's the steps you will most likely need to take. Remember that the Selling Dealer is the customer of Bradington Young and you are the Customer of the Selling Dealer. There's a chain of command if you will, so you first want your selling dealer to back you on this because if they won't, you will have a difficult time. If you bought locally to you, then you want to have someone from the dealer come over. If a distance buy, then a good photo set like you've done, and even a few more. Try to avoid contacting Brad -Young directly and work through your selling dealer.

First step is an evaluation, and for that it likely will have to go back to B-Y in Hickory NC. If local, the dealer can come pick it up, if you bought distance then you need to be prepared to pay for the blanket wrap shipper to come get it and take it to Hickory NC to the B-Y plant, or take it back to them yourself in a truck/trailer. That cost is going to be on you. Once it arrives back, B-Y will evaluate it and likely do a lab test on the leather to makes sure no unapproved chemicals were applied or 3rd party leather protection programs, etc. If that comes back clean then they will assess if the premature fade warrants replacement, and this is where your dealer backing comes in. I have done this before myself and B-Y is not as agreeable as a company as Hancock & Moore to do this sort of thing. It can require some significant dealer pressure, so WHOM you purchased from can make a difference, strong dealer backing is key. Once the decision is made to fix it, they will either recover it or more likely build you a new piece(s) in current leathers, and they typically pay the freight back to you. If they do not agree that it is premature and refuse, and the dealer cannot make headway on it, you likely will be responsible for return shipping as well.

So, as you can see there is some hassle and cost factor to you on this, more so if you bought long distance. I have had it go both ways as a dealer. I have had customers who had totally valid issues and I have successfully obtained a solution for them. I have also had customers who have tried to dupe myself and the factory with photos run through Photoshop to exaggerate issues that are not there and do not exist, thinking that once it had been returned they would automatically get satisfaction in the form of a new piece (they always want a different style) or a money refund due to buyer's remorse and that doesn't work out so well for them. And then there is the gray area, where the consumer thinks its defective, but its really just normal wear/tear/use, and those are the hardest ones of all as everything thinks their position is correct. Bottom line - before you put yourself through the process, be reasonably sure its not wear and tear/normal. In your case, I think - from the photos - it warrants an inspection and evaluation as I suspect the leather itself failed to hold its pigment and was a bad batch, but only an up-close look can tell for sure.

Hope that helps.

[yooper829]

Thanks Duane, I appreciate you taking the time to look at this with me. The process while correct is a bit intimidating to me I'll be honest! I'm taking the chance on paying the shipping from MI to NC without even knowing what they are going to say, then if they rule it's just normal wear I pay the shipping back. That's a pretty risky endeavor! I'm not so sure the risk is worth the potential cost with no outcome. Not to mention no furniture for a few months! The fact that it could be a bad leather batch is also unclear as I'm sure if takes more than one hide to cover a sofa and a love seat. Is it possible it's not the leather but the dye that could be the weak link? I guess anything is possible at this point so that was a silly question. I think I'll start with pictures and see what they have to say. Thanks so much again!

[drcollie]

OK, here's an update to this....

I am switching leather cleaning and protection products to a company Leather Solutions, as this is who Hancock & Moore has gone to.

http://www.leathersi.com/About-Us_ep_7.html

I placed a large initial order with them of product and spent a lot of time speaking to their master tech and owner on the phone. In the course of the conversation I described the issues you are having with your B-Y color pigment loss and Pamela, the owner, said she can GUARANTEE that your leather is not defective, that its caused by use and body oils, and failure to clean/condition. She said that in todays' leather products, which are very green, you must use product on them or you will experience that color loss. The standards for dyes and pigmentation have changed and leather requires maintenance to avoid that situation. Also, anyone in medication can cause the color loss to accelerate from chemical reactions. She teaches a leather history and repair class in North Carolina that takes 2 days, and I will likely see if I can take it myself. She says she can fix you up with a color kit to restore your pieces. Give them a call at 336-629-4998. So, while this is a reversal of what I may have said earlier (Hey, I can still learn, too!) I think that should be your next step. Good luck!

[brian]

Duane, are you switching leather cleaning products because there is something wrong with Leather Magic, or just because Hancock & Moore has switched to Leather Solutions?

[drcollie]

"I am switching leather cleaning and protection products to a company Leather Solutions, as this is who Hancock & Moore has gone to."

[Tabby]

Resurrecting this old thread to ask: If this leather were NOT "protected" with a topcoat/paint--i.e. it was a dyed leather, unprotected--would it still experience this specific problem? I understand that they can have their own issues, but seeing the "paint" rub off after spending thousands is rather upsetting. I think maybe I'd rather chance a stain in the unprotected versus the rubbing off of the surface (we'll soon be deciding on leather).

Thanks

[drcollie]

The type and kind of leather is generally less important than the maintenance and how you use it.

The kicker is that no one can predict someone's lifestyle - some people are very hard on things, others not. It does make a difference. If you know your family is going to be hard on something, than it won't matter which leather you buy so you may as well get the less costly ones so you have less dollars in the piece. If you are going to take care of it and appreciate the differences in a fine leather, than its a joy to own a high-grade aniline. In my own house, we have about a dozen pieces of leather. The ones upstairs are in terrific shape, because that's where my wife and I live in the house and our teenage kids were not allowed to brutalize the pieces. The ones in the basement media room where they hung out and had all their friends over are a lot more beat up, but still hanging in there. The lifestyle use is 4x as tough in the basement as upstairs, because my wife and I take care of all our stuff - its in our DNA. For example, my cars at six years old look better than most people's that are just one year old - because I hand-wash them every week (even in winter) and wax them every 90 days. That sort of thing.

I find finished leathers boring. They are plain vanilla. I don't have them in my house because they lack the richness and character of a pure aniline. Furniture for me is part art, part functional. I like to have both, and my wife agrees. I don't worry about lifespans because I know if I take care of it, then it will last and I get maximum return on dollars spent. I do have one finished leather piece in my house, the very first piece I bought - a Hancock and Moore Woodbridge recliner that was brand new 30 years ago. It's still going strong. However I have seen customers absolutely ruin that same chair in less than 5 years.

True story : A customer brought one of these (H&M Woodbridge) back one day and pulled it out of his car and put it on the sidewalk out front, then came inside and said "This recliner you sold me didn't hold up, I want you to look at it and tell me what you're going to do for me." And he handed me his receipt and it was just 5 years old. I said "Let's go take a look" and I could not believe what I saw. That recliner was not just worn, it was destroyed. The mechanism was totally broken, it had rips on the hide on each side, the decorative nail trim had some kind of food encrusting on it that caused it to tarnish green (never seen that before), it was all cracked out on the hide to where the underlying foam was visible and deeply soiled and discolored. I blurted out "What did you do to this chair?" mostly in shock. He said "I just used it", and I replied "I guess you did, but its used up now". There was no repair to it, and I told him that he could leave it there and I will put it in the dumpster if he wants - it was beyond repair. That was not the remedy he was seeking, obviously.

What leather you select is less important than how you use the piece and take care of it. That's the best advice I have.

[yooper829]

Hi Tabby

I have to respectfully disagree with Duane on my situation anyways. I completely understand what he is saying, but our Bradington Young furnitures leather simply looks awful! 3-4 years old and the areas where we sit have completely worn down to the base color of the leather. If you look at the welting or the piping that surround every cushion the finish is worn off completely except for little dark spots...if you take your fingernail to these spots it scratches right off, and it's the coating of the leather! Obviously it did not adhere to leather plain and simple. We are not hard on our furniture, kids are grown and out of the house, I used to clean the leather every 2-3 months but that made zero difference in what has happened. I'm like Duane where I take care of my things, but in this case it did not matter. My parents have a similar B&Y set that is 10 years old and shows zero signs of wear, and is also a finished leather. This is why we purchased our set to begin with, we wanted something that would hold up better than your average $900 couch. We spent 3 times that amount per piece and it has worn worse than a cheap set! My only thought is they are using a more "environmentally friendly" type of dye and finish than what they were able to use 10 years ago. I'm in the coatings business and the specs for products change every year, lower or zero VOC's which is good for the environment but poor for the performance of the coatings for example, and I'm sure these same laws apply to the products the furniture industry are using. All I know is the extra money spent for 8 way hand tied seats and all that fluff that is promoted is irrevelant if the leather cannot hold up to just sitting on it. Honestly, our next purchase is going to be a much less expensive set that way when the leather starts to look shabby after 4-5 years we can simply replace it. We can purchase 3 sets for what we paid for the Bradington Young furniture so financially it makes no sense to purchase the quality furniture anymore.