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Thread: Stickley Furniture prices are confusing me, how to budget?

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Stickley Furniture prices are confusing me, how to budget?

    Ahhh...hook and cleats on bed frames will always fatigue and usually will tear out over the years. You will get a 'squeaky' bed rather quickly and you never want to push/pull a bed frame like that as it severely weakens the corners. With a proper 8-way bolt up bed (more costly to make) the bed will last hundreds of years structurally - if it gets a bit loose just tighten the bolt.

    Glad you are enjoying your Treharn bed, Cookie! It's a good choice. Thank you!
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  2. #12
    Trogdor Guest

    Default Re: Stickley Furniture prices are confusing me, how to budget?

    Frankly, you said 50% off was very aggressive. I'll bet you a Treharn dining room set that the Stickley guys still make money at that 50% off price. MSRP 12k for a dining room set is insane. Half of that is still on the high end of the market IMO.

  3. #13
    Cookie Guest

    Default Re: Stickley Furniture prices are confusing me, how to budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trogdor View Post
    Frankly, you said 50% off was very aggressive. I'll bet you a Treharn dining room set that the Stickley guys still make money at that 50% off price. MSRP 12k for a dining room set is insane. Half of that is still on the high end of the market IMO.
    IMHO, MSRP is just MSRP. It doesn't matter as long as the final price sounds reasonable to the person who pays for the item.

    From my personal purchase experience, I have to say 50% off MSRP is quite good for new, non-clearance-sale items. We've purchased many many big pieces (Sherrill, H&M, Maitland-Smith, Theodore Alexander, etc) from a local medium- / high-end shop. The discount we get is usually around 35%-40% off MSRP. The Maitland-Smith partners desk we got has a quite high MSRP (around $10k-$12k, if I remember correctly), so I pushed hard and managed to get 55% (or so) off MSRP, but I was able to get that discount only because I had been a very loyal customer who kept purchasing from that store.

    The bottom line is, the manufacturers and the retailers have to make money. Otherwise they will go out of business sooner or later. The only question is how much profit they take in from the sales and how much is left once they subtract the operating expenses from the profit.

    The $12k dining table set doesn't sound too terrible once you try adding up the price of individual items, say $1200 per chair (x 6) + $4800 for the table = $12k. These prices I used are in line with what the good custom furniture markers would charge for their work. (I know these prices probably sound insane to people who are not accustomed to high-quality custom furniture, my husband included. )

    Now, the Stickley dining set is not really custom and you could get 50% off. This brings the price down to $600 per chair (x 6) + $2400 for the table. Assuming the chairs and the table are made properly, it's quite a bargain!

    Of course, what one thinks reasonable might sound crazy to another person. There's always that sticker shock. But once one gets over that, I think she/he will start collecting true-heirloom quality pieces, myself included.
    Last edited by Cookie; 08-13-2014 at 11:17 AM.

  4. #14
    Trogdor Guest

    Default Re: Stickley Furniture prices are confusing me, how to budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    IMHO, MSRP is just MSRP. It doesn't matter as long as the final price sounds reasonable to the person who pays for the item.

    From my personal purchase experience, I have to say 50% off MSRP is quite good for new, non-clearance-sale items. We've purchased many many big pieces (Sherrill, H&M, Maitland-Smith, Theodore Alexander, etc) from a local medium- / high-end shop. The discount we get is usually around 35%-40% off MSRP. The Maitland-Smith partners desk we got has a quite high MSRP (around $10k-$12k, if I remember correctly), so I pushed hard and managed to get 55% (or so) off MSRP, but I was able to get that discount only because I had been a very loyal customer who kept purchasing from that store.

    The bottom line is, the manufacturers and the retailers have to make money. Otherwise they will go out of business sooner or later. The only question is how much profit they take in from the sales and how much is left once they subtract the operating expenses from the profit.

    The $12k dining table set doesn't sound too terrible once you try adding up the price of individual items, say $1200 per chair (x 6) + $4800 for the table = $12k. These prices I used are in line with what the good custom furniture markers would charge for their work. (I know these prices probably sound insane to people who are not accustomed to high-quality custom furniture, my husband included. )

    Now, the Stickley dining set is not really custom and you could get 50% off. This brings the price down to $600 per chair (x 6) + $2400 for the table. Assuming the chairs and the table are made properly, it's quite a bargain!

    Of course, what one thinks reasonable might sound crazy to another person. There's always that sticker shock. But once one gets over that, I think she/he will start collecting true-heirloom quality pieces, myself included.
    Well, this WILL be interesting then.

    Wondering if anyone else reading this can share their experiences too (buying Stickley or any other high end brand)
    Last edited by Trogdor; 08-14-2014 at 07:23 AM.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Stickley Furniture prices are confusing me, how to budget?

    A couple of things I would like to point out in this discussion without getting too deep into the theory of Capitalism as an form of economics and that is that as a Consumer, try to avoid going down the path of determining what profit you feel a store should make. I do see that happen quite often, and the reality of it is that unless you own your own small business, you don't have any idea of the operating costs involved. A consumer cannot decide what a fair profit would be for the merchant to make on a sale. it's very costly to operate a retail store, with a lot of expenses behind the scenes that are far more complex than simply what a dealer pays the supplier and markup percentage. Every business has to set their own pricing for them to be successful and remain in business, and its typically done with gross margin percentages (GPM). After operating costs are deducted, then there is a net margin (profit) at the end of each year which that business owner uses to live on as income. That's the basics of it all but realize that each store has different operating costs that affect the percentage of pricing (GPM). What ultimately determines the retail price is both that GPM target in conjunction with what competitors are selling the product for. As a consumer - you read articles about how to shop for the lowest price and for many it becomes a quest to seek that out, and folks will spend hours on the internet to get to that last nickel on price - and in our form of commerce there is certainly a right to do that and you should spend your money where you are comfortable doing so. However there are other factors you should consider such as A) What level of service do you expect during the sales process including return privledges? B) If there is a problem with the order, will I get the support I need to resolve it from the selling dealer or will I be brushed off? C) Will that dealer be there for me in 5 or even 10 years if I need service after the sale?

    Manufacturers are well aware of who sells their product and how individual stores price out. What typically happens is that the dealer selling at the lowest prices offers the least service, often to the point of not even responding to a customer complaint or concern. That low-ball dealer can't afford to offer ANY customer service because every customer service contact costs money, even if its nothing more than 20 minutes on the phone that is 20 minutes burned up a "X" dollars an hour. At some point, quality manufacturers will not tolerate these discount pricing renegades because of this lack of customer service and they are cut off, and lose their dealership. That and poor budgeting on the part of heavy discounters mean they lack funds for emergencies or bumps in the economy with no cash reserves and as a result, you see them all burned up within a few years and gone. The successful business makes enough profit on sales to sustain their business, offer a decent level of customer service, can weather an economic downturn, and make enough for the owners/employees to enjoy a reasonable lifestyle and earn a living wage.

    Just a couple of things as an example to consider as thinking points on why stores have to charge what they do. 1) If I go back 20 years ago to the mid-1990's, I would say 85% of my sales were paid for via check / cash. Now in 2014, that is the reverse and 90 % of all sales are done on plastic, each carries a charge to the merchant, and its not even a flat rate! There are something like 34 levels of percentage charges now with a business rewards card the most costly to process (as they are the least likely to pay interest to the issuing bank). Years ago, I use to simply absorb those percentage costs as they were small in percentage and only 15 % of total receipts. Today, it's a major expense and I have to increase the selling prices of the goods to cover those fees. You pay more for the goods as a consumer as a result because it has increased the cost load for the goods. 2) A forum such as this costs several thousand dollars a year to run and operate, its not truly 'free' and yet no one here is asked to pay a fee to use it, either for the actual time on it, or for my time as a consultant (it takes 30 minutes to type out this reply, for example). How many heavy discounters offers something like this for you to use as a tool? Not many! There are many more instances of costs you don't really see as a consumer (Don't even get me started on what it costs to run a delivery truck) and that all has to be reflected in the selling price of the goods.

    What you want to do as a consumer - my advice - is to find out what is comfortable for you to spend on a purchase, balance that with the quality of the product so you can get a crude cost analysis (Years of Useful Life vs Cash Outlay), then make your purchase based on whom you feel comfortable doing business with based on their reputation, knowledge, convenience and service after the sale. Don't focus so much on the bottom dollar but look at the intangibles in making your purchasing decision and buy within your comfort zone financially. Above all, avoid the trap and pitfalls of trying to determine what a 'fair' price would be for you to pay, that will just make the whole thing a bitter and frustrating experience. Do your due diligence in shopping around of course and then select from whom you wish to do business with after weighing all the factors.
    Last edited by drcollie; 08-14-2014 at 08:15 AM.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  6. #16
    Cookie Guest

    Default Re: Stickley Furniture prices are confusing me, how to budget?

    Duane gives excellent advice.

    In my last reply, I didn't mean to imply that the price is the only factor to consider. I was focusing on that aspect, since the OP seems to be more concerned with price.

  7. #17
    Trogdor Guest

    Default Re: Stickley Furniture prices are confusing me, how to budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    A couple of things I would like to point out in this discussion without getting too deep into the theory of Capitalism as an form of economics and that is that as a Consumer, try to avoid going down the path of determining what profit you feel a store should make. I do see that happen quite often, and the reality of it is that unless you own your own small business, you don't have any idea of the operating costs involved. A consumer cannot decide what a fair profit would be for the merchant to make on a sale. it's very costly to operate a retail store, with a lot of expenses behind the scenes that are far more complex than simply what a dealer pays the supplier and markup percentage. Every business has to set their own pricing for them to be successful and remain in business, and its typically done with gross margin percentages (GPM). After operating costs are deducted, then there is a net margin (profit) at the end of each year which that business owner uses to live on as income. That's the basics of it all but realize that each store has different operating costs that affect the percentage of pricing (GPM). What ultimately determines the retail price is both that GPM target in conjunction with what competitors are selling the product for. As a consumer - you read articles about how to shop for the lowest price and for many it becomes a quest to seek that out, and folks will spend hours on the internet to get to that last nickel on price - and in our form of commerce there is certainly a right to do that and you should spend your money where you are comfortable doing so. However there are other factors you should consider such as A) What level of service do you expect during the sales process including return privledges? B) If there is a problem with the order, will I get the support I need to resolve it from the selling dealer or will I be brushed off? C) Will that dealer be there for me in 5 or even 10 years if I need service after the sale?

    Manufacturers are well aware of who sells their product and how individual stores price out. What typically happens is that the dealer selling at the lowest prices offers the least service, often to the point of not even responding to a customer complaint or concern. That low-ball dealer can't afford to offer ANY customer service because every customer service contact costs money, even if its nothing more than 20 minutes on the phone that is 20 minutes burned up a "X" dollars an hour. At some point, quality manufacturers will not tolerate these discount pricing renegades because of this lack of customer service and they are cut off, and lose their dealership. That and poor budgeting on the part of heavy discounters mean they lack funds for emergencies or bumps in the economy with no cash reserves and as a result, you see them all burned up within a few years and gone. The successful business makes enough profit on sales to sustain their business, offer a decent level of customer service, can weather an economic downturn, and make enough for the owners/employees to enjoy a reasonable lifestyle and earn a living wage.

    Just a couple of things as an example to consider as thinking points on why stores have to charge what they do. 1) If I go back 20 years ago to the mid-1990's, I would say 85% of my sales were paid for via check / cash. Now in 2014, that is the reverse and 90 % of all sales are done on plastic, each carries a charge to the merchant, and its not even a flat rate! There are something like 34 levels of percentage charges now with a business rewards card the most costly to process (as they are the least likely to pay interest to the issuing bank). Years ago, I use to simply absorb those percentage costs as they were small in percentage and only 15 % of total receipts. Today, it's a major expense and I have to increase the selling prices of the goods to cover those fees. You pay more for the goods as a consumer as a result because it has increased the cost load for the goods. 2) A forum such as this costs several thousand dollars a year to run and operate, its not truly 'free' and yet no one here is asked to pay a fee to use it, either for the actual time on it, or for my time as a consultant (it takes 30 minutes to type out this reply, for example). How many heavy discounters offers something like this for you to use as a tool? Not many! There are many more instances of costs you don't really see as a consumer (Don't even get me started on what it costs to run a delivery truck) and that all has to be reflected in the selling price of the goods.

    What you want to do as a consumer - my advice - is to find out what is comfortable for you to spend on a purchase, balance that with the quality of the product so you can get a crude cost analysis (Years of Useful Life vs Cash Outlay), then make your purchase based on whom you feel comfortable doing business with based on their reputation, knowledge, convenience and service after the sale. Don't focus so much on the bottom dollar but look at the intangibles in making your purchasing decision and buy within your comfort zone financially. Above all, avoid the trap and pitfalls of trying to determine what a 'fair' price would be for you to pay, that will just make the whole thing a bitter and frustrating experience. Do your due diligence in shopping around of course and then select from whom you wish to do business with after weighing all the factors.
    From a customer's point of view:

    The problem with all of the above is that it is based on the premise that the furniture biz is transparent with respect to pricing. And as I've already established in this thread as well as in many others after a quick search, it's not. I'm speaking in general not specifically toward your business Duane. You seem to be the diamond in the rough so kudos! Again, Duane, if I was closer to you, I would most certainly stop by and talk about our little project.

    But because of the wide variation of prices, that means a furniture store's overhead means very little to me because I can not as a consumer separate greedy markups vs real business operating costs. And as a result, when I see a 12k dining room set marked down by 40-50% that means to me it was overly inflated to begin with, and it's true fair market value (FMV) is somewhat dubious. And at the end of the day, FMV is what I feel comfortable spending no matter the brand.

    Moreover, furniture isn't like selling plumbing. How many folks need real customer service after the purchase of a dining room set, a solid wood one at that? I would venture to guess that the overwhelming majority of high quality furniture sold comes with very little issues (i.e. pieces damaged, falling apart, etc. etc.). Otherwise as a brand, their reputation of "quality" would be lost. All I'm saying is MOST of the customer service happens BEFORE the sale, not AFTER. I could be wrong, but that's my perception.

    Finally, and most importantly, if a customer walks in willing to spend 20k on furniture, I would expect the business to heavily discount. For example, we just bought some outdoor furniture that was not that expensive from a Mom & Pop shop since we wanted to support them and their prices were inline with Amazon (couldn't believe it). They gave us 20% off even then (total was about 1000 dollars, it was two Adirondack solid PLASTIC (LOL, well no maintenance) chairs, fiberglass umbrella, base, etc. Canadian company, nice stuff too). With the 20% markdown it was a bit cheaper than ordering if off Amazon. I mean WOW.

    If folks are interested, I can most certainly give updates on my Stickley experience. If this doesn't work out, it is either Gat Creek or Treharn with the former being much more accessible in my neck of the woods.
    Last edited by Trogdor; 08-15-2014 at 10:48 AM.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Stickley Furniture prices are confusing me, how to budget?

    When I first got into this business, I decided to buck the trend of "FURNITURE SALE! 40 to 60% OFF!!" that is standard practice in this industry. I saw it as needless and indicative of snake oil salesmen to market that way, and it requires neon signs in the store and constant advertising. That was nearly three decades ago and I'm still here, so it shows that my formula worked enough to at least stay in business. I only offer an additional discount when the manufacturer offers ME one, such as the ongoing H&M 5% off Sale. Folks say... "Only 5%!?" Well...yeah....that's what I am getting so I'll pass it onto you.

    To cut through the chase on things and get to the bottom of it all, the industry as a whole marks up 3x the dealer wholesale (there are exceptions to this, but for the majority of suppliers this works). So, an item that the dealer pays $ 1,000 for has a MSRP of $ 3,000. If the dealer sells at 40% off, then the retail is going to be $ 1,799 and if they sell for 50% off then its $ 1,499. Gross Profit Margin (GPM) is (Retail - Cost) / Retail so at 50% off that works out to a GPM of 33%. There are not many furniture stores that can stay in business if they attempt to operate at under 33 % GPM. If they run a VERY tight ship, with no debt, low rent and few employees, they may net 15% from that at year end if they get a decent sales year. And that's for a very aggressively priced store in a rather poor location. If you put them into a mall environment or a 'nice' location in a major retail area that 33% won't cut it and they will need another 10% to cover the real estate costs . Few stores in major cities such as Washington DC / New York / San Francisco / Chicago, etc. can afford to do 50% off every day, the margins are too low and expenses will grind them up (warehousing costs will eat them up as well, warehouse space is prime in major cities). That's why big discounters are usually in small outlying cities or warehouse areas where the space ie cheaper. Because the margins are what they are, you can now see why a 2 to 3 % credit card transaction fee can have quite an impact on the bottom line. That, in a nutshell, is how it all works. I run about as lean as a store can possible run - which is why I can price so aggressively. A lot of my local customers would like me to move to a 'better' location and I dearly would like to as well, but I'd have to add that 10 % onto the selling price to cover those nice locations and that has always made me cautious of a move.

    You might be surprised at how much service is required after the sale. At any given time I have about 6 to 8 issues I am working on for customers. As I write this I have in the hopper the following and all require time and effort to pursue:

    * A table refinish that a customer left in her sunlit kitchen window and it faded out dramatically due to constant UV rays. Not a warranty issue at all, but I'm not going to tell her 'too bad, buy a new table'.
    * The third swivel base replacement on a H&M Swivel Recliner chair that the customer says doesn't rotate smoothly enough but bases # 1 and # 2 seem to work fine at our store.
    * A replacement footboard on a bed that has a sap pocket in the wood. It's 'normal' but the customer would like it replaced so we will.
    * A chair that is going back to H&M for replacement leather on an arm after it had been delivered due to a mysterious orange rash on it that no one seems to know how it occurred. I am replacing the leather at my expense.
    * A set of replacement cores for an H&M sofa that I did not sell (their dealer had gone out of business) and I am sourcing for them as a courtesy.
    * Treharn forgot to drill a cord hole in the back of an entertainment center that we shipped out of state (direct pickup), so coordinating to get a handyman there to drill a few holes in the back of it.
    * A H&M Power/Lift chair in a high-end leather that my good customer ordered for her invalid husband and he was uncomfortable in it - so I have it back here on consignment to sell as a courtesy.

    Customer service is one of those things where if you don't need it - you're golden. But when you DO need it, its really nice to have someone that will actually do something for you. And as you can see, many of the issues are not cut and dried - things many stores would say 'Sorry, that's not our problem". I try to operate at a higher level than that when I can.

    As to the amount spent - $ 20K is not a particularly large number, I get an order that size regularly. When you work off realistic percentages in your business, you would have to have a huge order to compensate for the reduced percentage margin to cover it - if the order was say $ 100K, then there might be a tad bit more room in a discount, but also keep in mind that big orders present their own set of issues as well, such as having enough warehouse space and trucking capability to handle it. Often that means renting extra storage space and an additional truck / crew which is an added cost. When I did seventy-two pieces of Hancock and Moore for The White House (1600 Penn. Ave). I was getting a lot of pressure from the GSA buyer for additional discounts. I called H&M and asked for one and was turned down, and was presented with "We will have to put every employee on this order to get it all done at the same time and there is no efficiency in that, in fact it will screw up our production schedules to drop everything do make this order in a timely manner". After I got off the phone, I realized that was correct. So I couldn't get the GSA buyer a lower price, but still won the bid as my every day price was lower than anyone else's on the items by quite a bit.

    I think everyone has their own comfort levels of buying - not only furniture but in every consumer product from a car to a house to a piece of jewelry. You have to buy in your comfort level, or maybe just a little beyond. When you exceed it, then your expectations of what it should be and the anxiety of the price overcome the fun of the purchase, and you really can't enjoy it like you should. Probably best to seek out pieces that work for you within that comfort level and stay in that range. You won't find anyone fireballing out Stickley to my knowledge, the maker controls the distribution too tightly to allow renegade discounters to sell the line.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  9. #19
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Stickley Furniture prices are confusing me, how to budget?

    I would like to chime in on the Stickley quality. Having lived much of my life in central NY where the main Stickley case goods are manufactured and having purchased a number of Stickley pieces at their factory store ( the original one in Fayetteville and the newer one at their factory in Manlius) I can attest to their quality and focus on customer satisfaction.
    When you enter their main factory showroom they have a major display, almost museum like, showing the history of the company. There is also a section where they show various construction and joinery techniques. The display explains the evolution of furniture manufacturing, benefits and shortfalls of changes in technology and various techniques. Most importantly and beneficial they show how they construct various pieces and types of furniture, including hand finishing. I own a 72" double pedestal solid cherry desk (no veneers, solid brass pulls, ball bearing double drawer closures, dovetail drawers, etc.) purchased 22 years ago, solid cherry dining table with inlays that is as beautiful as any I have seen anywhere, and a number of occasional tables. While Stickley may not feature the options for true custom pieces with exotic woods and made to order sizes that small craft manufactures like some of Duane's custom suppliers, it is certainly very good and well made and furniture I am proud to have in my home.

    Also, it is interesting that I purchased my first piece of H&M furniture, a chair for my Stickley desk, at the Stickley factory showroom.
    Last edited by cuse69; 08-15-2014 at 03:25 PM.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Stickley Furniture prices are confusing me, how to budget?

    Just another thought about your purchasing decisions. If you are in northern NJ, you might consider contacting the sales group at the Stickley factory about any sales opportunities. Not having been back to their facilities in a number of years I don't know the status of their factory store, but they did have special sales events from time to time. A 4 hour car trip to Manlius ( eastern suburb of Syracuse) might be worthwhile. Also it might be an opportunity to see additional pieces that the local store may not have in stock and to become more knowledgable about the brand/quality.

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