H&M and BY questions on comfortable sofas

[drcollie]

Its a loose back held on by industrial velcro strips. Takes a pretty good pull to get them off.

[carmela39]

Duane,
Thanks for the reassurance on the married cover. The color actually works for us. I love the Kipling but then it takes us out of Town and Country and then it's how much? Also nervous because you mentioned in one of the posts I have read that it doens't repel some oils and stains. We do drink and eat snacks in the family room so most likely not smart for my lifestyle correct? So your honest opinion is that if we like Doc Copper no sense spending more for the hide sewn here?
But if I was truly against Chinese Leather what other grade II options would you explore for a heavy use and what colors are closest? I appreciate your advice. These are going to last me a long time and I want to get it right!
Finally, have you even seen a room set up where two sofas are placed not in an L configuration but rather one against a wall and the other angled? It would be the only way I could fit two sofas rather than a sofa loveseat. It's a little tight though so might not look the best.
I CAN'T THANK YOU ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!

[drcollie]

I definitely would not pay extra to go outside Married Cover on H&M, if you like the lead leather offered in the program. H&M's 'cut and sewn' program is superior to B-Y's. I can find glaring faults in much of the B-Y Married Cover (one time there was a branding iron impression - right in the middle of the seat leather). They use more padding at H&M so married covers look better and fuller on that maker's product, and I don't find any of the 'reject' leather in H&M's Marriced Cover that I do with B-Y.

I no longer order B-Y's married cover for floor stock for my store.

I love Kipling. To me, its the best of the hides in the whole line until you get to Grade 3 leathers. It can stain if oily spills contact it, or acid-based liquids, but in reality that doesn't occur very often. I have Kipling on my personal recliner at home (# 1044 Sadler) and its two years old with not a stain on it, and I don't baby my furniture at home. There have been plenty of sodas and popcorn on that recliner and its none the worse for wear.

If you don't want a Chinese leather, and want fully protected, I actually start with a Grade 1 leather and look at Columbia. Its' a South Amercian leather that I think is really a terrific hide.

As to fitment in the room, you're the best judge of that for you home. Its hard to say without seeing a diagram or photos of the room. However I will say that no room looks good when the furniture is 'jammed' into it. Keeping adequate free space is an important part of proper decorating and selection.

[carmela39]

Duane,

But is Kipling protected? It says it is on the web site but I guess you don't consider it one of those wipe n go leathers. I really looks beautiful. I guess it also doesn't have any of the color effects as the Document has?
Wondering if you could possibly get me some samples which I am happy to pay for.

I wonder if you think the Berkshire is a nice leather. Someone recently posted their new chair in Berkshire Harness, looked dynamite.

We like a reddish brown, to cognac color but DON"t want the pieces to look orange if you know what I mean. To me Whiskey looks orange for example.

The colors on the web all look so dark. Wondering if you think Columbia would hold up as well as document. Is it a nice feeling hide? Really shiny? What would the sofa run in a grade 1. I feel like I'm really going in the wrong direction with H&M and then a grade 1 hide, but you seem to imply the product is still long wearing?

I like the Kipling Saddle and Cognac but I guess that would make the piece cost about 3,700? If that's the case I really don't want to go that route...

Hope you don't think I'm a basket case.
Carmela

[drcollie]

Every leather in the H&M line has protection on it - they all have a teflon topcoating. However there are some that are very sensitive to spills and grime, and those are:

Deerskin
Lambskin
Nubuck
any of the Suedes.

Other than that, most everything else will sluff off what you throw at it for the most part. I personally think too much emphasis is placed on Protected vs. Non-Protected and it prevents a lot of folks from really getting into the great leathers that are available. Having said that, if you absolutely cannot tolerate the possibility of a stain, then stay with Finished leathers. One thing you can do is when you request samples, take those into the kitchen and start spilling things on the samples that you would anticipate being on the furniture. Soda, Milk, Wine, Popcorn, Jam, Mustard and so forth. See what wipes off and what doesn't. You're going to find out that even on the 'un-protected' leathers that until you get to rubbing Criso shortening, Motor Oil out of the garage, and Hawiian Tropic suntan oil, that they sluff off most everything

I have Berkshire on my wife's office chair at home and Diane just took delivery of her recliner with that leather on it. Its a 'pebbly', uniform leather that can take a lot of abuse. Kipling by comparison, is softer and waxier feeling, and has high-lows to it as its a mild pull-up leather. Look at the Kipling Cognac on PHOTO RESOURCES, there's an ottoman in that category that shows it.

Columbia will hold up every bit as well as Document. And it has some sheen to it, but not overwhelming. I have photos of a sofa done in that as well in the category (above). Good hand, its decent, and not a 'cheapie' leather in the least. This morning, one of my customers in Florida called to say he really liked his Columbia leather on the sectional he took delivery of yesterday. It exceeded his expectations on the leather choice.

Send me a PM with your address and I'll get some samples to you.

The September prices out like this (Sofa/Loveseat):

Grade 1: $ 3,026 / $ 2,540

Grade 2: $ 3,578 / $ 3,126

Town and Country Married Cover, Document Copper: $ 2,193 / $ 2,193

Clearly there is a lot of savings buying Married Cover. It really depends on your budget and preferences. I know that I get 20 years or more out of my H&M, so I get what I want. If it costs me an extra $ 1,000 for the leather I like, then divided by the projected lifespan of the piece that's $ 50 a year. I don't think there is anyone on this forum that $ 50 a year would make or break. Of course, the problem might be is its one big hit when you buy it, and I always think it wise to stay within your comfort level when making a purchase.

I have a Leathercraft # 2670 in my home that has a grade 3 hide on it. I have the same sofa in my store in a promotional hide that is a thousand dollars less in price. Every day I go in my store I say to myself "How can my sofa at home look so much better than that ugly painted leather I have in the store?" Really - I do! My H&M 1044 Sadler in Kipling Whisky looks ten times richer and nicer than the 1044 I have in the store in Document Tobacco (Married Cover). Like the old saying goes, "You pays your money - you takes your choice".

I will also tell you that in 20 years of doing this, I have NEVER had the first customer come back in the store and say 'Gee Duane, I regret buying that better leather and wish I would have saved the money and gone with a cheaper leather." I have had several instances however, where customers come back in a few years later and tell me they wish they had gone upscale instead of the promotional leathers.

There now, that should really make you a basket case! <laughing>

[dr56]

I love the berkshire leather, Duane! It is better than I anticipated. The sheen is not there which is what I wanted and the pebbly texture is very subtle but its there and that's what I wanted. Love everything about it and glad I went up one notch! Well worth it!

[carmela39]

dr56,
I love the look of your recliner. I will consider Bershire Harness. What other leathers did you consider? It looks like it has a little red in the color which I like. I want to be sure whatever I choose, it will hold up to a lot of wear since it will be used by my two teens, their friends, my family etc. I have a BUSY house.
Duane, I am visiting a furn store with the samples so I can narrow down what I need for samples to put in my house for the right lighting. I will PM you with the details later this week. We are really afraid to go with the married cover and my DH says why buy H&M if we wind up with a leather sewn in China. He is adamant that I find a leather that is not from there in any way shape or form even though we liked Doc copper and it is in T&C program. I know this will wind up costing us another 2K at least but as you have said, over the life of the furniture, it's not much. Finally, is there a sectional they make that has three seats, then a wedge then two seats? That is our current configuration in the room and gives us the most seating possible, six seats. September only has two, wedge two.

[drcollie]

Carmela,

When you go check out samples, be mindful of the fact that dye lot variance in leather is normal and considerable. Taking a sample into specific lighting, for example, won't matter much as that may show a 2 % variance in tone from non-specific lighting. The dye lot variance will be on order of 15 %, so the 2 % for lighting becomes insignificant. I suggest placing any sample on a chair, then backing up about eight feet. That's the best way to view a color. What you don't want to do is hold it arm's length and study it in various lighting...that will make you nutty and your finished piece won't be that close to the sample anyways.

Married Cover Document offers an incredible value, but I have to be honest with you - its not my favorite leather and I would never own it for my own home. It's too 'processed' for my tastes, too much artificial working of the leather. In their attempt to get this hide perfect, they've done exactly that. There are no flaws in Document, no 'marks of the trail', the toning effect is overdone (artificially again), and that wonderful smell of real leather is absent. (Side note, Document is head and shoulders above so many other leathers other companies offer, but when you have over 400 to choose from in H&M, you see other hides that have much more appeal). H&M would surely not want me to post this opinon because that's their top-selling leather. But it's just not 'real leather' in the connsieur sense.


Here are my top picks for tough leathers that can handle a busy household.

Grade 1: Columbia

Grade 2: Aspen, Berkshire, Kipling (may absorb some stains), Walker

Grade 3: Antelope, Bari, Equestrian, Luggage

None of those above source from the Pacific Rim countries. Most are European. Don't discount Columbia because its a grade 1 hide. Of the 72 pieces of H&M I put in The White House in 2007, the majority of them were in Columbia. I think Kipling is terrific, but its Serviceablity 3 so keep that in mind. Antelope is incredible, its a German leather that is the very best of the fully protected leather. And Equestrian is another favorite that has that leather aroma every time you walk into the room. Walker you won't find samples of. It's new and I'm probably the only dealer in the country that has them now.

Remember that YOU are the number one source of longevity in your new leather purchase. All the hides will hold up, but you must come by and clean them periodically to get the dirt and oils off them. The number 1 cause of hide failure is lack of cleaning. When leather is not cleaned (and its really easy to do), then the accumulated dirt and oil attack the tannins in the leather and cause it to crack, then split. Other than that, be mindful of sun fading and you'll be good to go.

Yes, all the sectionals that H&M does can configure like that, even the September! Best way to see them is go to the H&M web site, go to PRODUCTS, key in SECTIONALS and they will all display. Not all combinations will show on the web site, but you can get sofa/wedge/loveseat on all their pieces.

[carmela39]

Duane,
Thanks for this.

I am not going to consider Kipling (i know it's your fav grade 2), Bari or Equestrian since they are not protected. Just would be afraid to let anyone sit down. LOL

So with that, I narrowed down some leathrs and I will go do exactly what you said. I am a little nervous about a 15% color variance but I'll have to go with my gut and pics.
It seems from the info you sent that you would opt for Columbia over Document. I must not have a great eye but isn't Columbia a little shiny? Does it also have that over processed look that you don't like about Document?

Before I even get my hopes up on the sectional, do you have the size dimenstions for a LAF sofa,and RAF loveseat? Is this also a two piece or three? Dare I ask you to price it for me in a grade 1, 2 and 3? Antelope is gorgeous but I don't want to get my hopes up.

Thanks,
Carmela

[drcollie]

Yes, I prefer Columbia over Document. It's still a Finished leather and will have sheen in the topcoat, and its a long ways from the Class 3 leathers. But for grade 1, its terrific.

Sectional SOFA 2-piece (September # 9749LAQ):

Grade 1: $ 3,578
Grade 2: $ 4,229
Grade 3: $ 4,635

Sectional 2-piece LOVESEAT (Septermber 9748RAQ) :

Grade 1: $ 3,239
Grade 2: $ 3,850
Grade 3: $ 4,196

They come as 2-pieces in the September group. About what I expected them to price out at. Most H&M sectionals range from $ 7K to $ 12K