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Thread: What's a reasonable price point for a custom wood queen bed?

  1. #11
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    Default Re: What's a reasonable price point for a custom wood queen bed?

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    All wide-board furniture made of solids will seasonally move. It will shrink in the winter and expand in the summer. In addition to movement, the wood wants to cup, or return to its natural state as a round tree. The art of the cabinetmaker is controlling that movement through joinery techniques. When building using plywood, veneers or narrow strip boards this is not an issue. On that headboard, there is nothing to control that movement and curl unless the cabinetmaker has put in hidden battens (strips of wood running 90 degrees to the grain) which are complex in and of themselves to do. That's the only way you can control movement in a live edge piece. The vertical attachment points on that headboard do nothing to control edge movement. Here's something you can read into if interested, this only touches the surface and becomes much more detailed in fine woodworking.

    A sure sign of a novice or inexperienced woodworker is someone that uses hardware store lumber and has no clue as to how to control movement. Their projects will blow up, guaranteed.

    http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas...rstanding.html
    Oh God, that's scary!! And, most likely why I don't see myself in the garage one of these weekends building anything, let alone a bed! Lol, I'm as far from a DIY 'er as they come! If I can pay someone to do it, I will.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: What's a reasonable price point for a custom wood queen bed?

    Here's a little woodworking tidbit for you....

    Know how you can tell a new woodworker just getting into the trade? They use WAY too much wood glue. A little known fact is that wood glue is stronger than the wood itself. When movement happens seasonally (and it will) the wood is going to expand and contract, there is no way to prevent it. If the glue is holding the wood too tightly the wood itself will fracture, like an earthquake fault if you will. The glue bond will not break.

    I have new cabinet makers come into my store and want me to buy their wares, I always tell them to bring me a dining room table sample so I can see what they make. Rookie woodworkers know the table needs breadboard ends to keep from curling in wide board furniture, so they do that but they glue them on. What happens when the table top expands then? You hear a big crack and the table splits right down the middle, a chasm. So if they bring that table in and I see breadboards are glued on, I give them a woodworking lesson and send them back home - with schooling on how to make a floating breadboard end that keeps the top straight and yet lets the table move.

    There is an art to wide board joinery, its not just saws and screws with a finish applied. Before I will buy a woodworker's products, he has to pass my tests for knowing how to put something together correctly.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: What's a reasonable price point for a custom wood queen bed?

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    Here's a little woodworking tidbit for you....

    Know how you can tell a new woodworker just getting into the trade? They use WAY too much wood glue. A little known fact is that wood glue is stronger than the wood itself. When movement happens seasonally (and it will) the wood is going to expand and contract, there is no way to prevent it. If the glue is holding the wood too tightly the wood itself will fracture, like an earthquake fault if you will. The glue bond will not break.

    I have new cabinet makers come into my store and want me to buy their wares, I always tell them to bring me a dining room table sample so I can see what they make. Rookie woodworkers know the table needs breadboard ends to keep from curling in wide board furniture, so they do that but they glue them on. What happens when the table top expands then? You hear a big crack and the table splits right down the middle, a chasm. So if they bring that table in and I see breadboards are glued on, I give them a woodworking lesson and send them back home - with schooling on how to make a floating breadboard end that keeps the top straight and yet lets the table move.

    There is an art to wide board joinery, its not just saws and screws with a finish applied. Before I will buy a woodworker's products, he has to pass my tests for knowing how to put something together correctly.
    Duane, that's very helpful info. I had no idea there were tell tale signs of a novice woodworker that could so easily be seen.

    This is REALLY is helping me out, thanks

    It's so insightful, it should be moved to its own thread under the "wood furniture, etc" header.

    I thought 1 guy, doing it all by hand using solid wood & managing to keep an impressive online presence was the epitome of American, high-end furniture. Just goes to show the amount of misleading information out there for ppl like me.

    I'll Google this & read more about it.

    Andrea
    Last edited by Asomer; 04-06-2016 at 01:33 AM.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: What's a reasonable price point for a custom wood queen bed?

    There are many, many woodworkers that get into the business without a solid knowledge base on joinery and technique, it's pretty common to see it. Experience will teach them over time, however I don't want either myself or my customers to be their guinea pigs while they figure it all out. You would be amazed at the number of aspiring woodworkers I have turned away because their construction methods are inadequate. They go home tail tucked between their legs and a few come back later on, but most do not and I never see them again. They find another dealer to sell their wares to, a dealer that perhaps doesn't know about proper construction technique and that's fine as well.

    While the technique is out there for everyone to learn, the real key in furniture building is speed. Even the best woodworkers cannot often build efficiently, and this costs them money, and lots of it. For example, Bob can make a gorgeous 6 drawer chest and it takes him 10 weeks he wants to sell it retail for $ 8,000. Dan is much faster, he can make three chests in all equally as nice in 4 weeks time and wants to sell them for $ 4,000 each. Who is making more money? Bob is starving, Dan is doing OK. And yet, it will be Bob who 'romances' the build of his piece - what we call selling the sizzle - in hopes of drawing in someone to pay him the high price for his slow work. Dan set up a mini-production line and has efficiencies in his workshop build, and therefore makes better money. Dan has the meat, Bob has the sizzle.

    I used to have a cabinetmaker by the name of Doug St. Clair who did all our Chippendale and QA Dining chairs for us in his small shop. (Doug passed away several years ago from Lou Gehrig's disease). Doug was so fast for a 1-man shop other people in the business said it was impossible for him to make those chairs as fast as he did and sell them so aggressively to me. I took 100% of his output, and we always kept him busy. Doug had no wasted movement in his shop, everything was arranged for speed. And that was his key. Heres another example of that: There were 6 different router bits used in the building of our Chippendale Chair. Now your average woodworker would buy one expensive router and change the bit each time. Doug didn't do that. He bought six cheap Sears Craftsman routers and loaded each one with one of the 6 bits, then suspended them from the ceiling on springs. No changing bits and the routers where all at his workstation, he just had to reach overhead, pull down the one he needed and when done turn it off and let it retract itself then grab the next one. Speed was his secret weapon. More speed means more efficiency. More efficiency means lower prices. And lower prices translate into more volume and profit. He had it figured out. When I tell that tidbit to other woodworkers their eyes gloss over and they don't 'get it', they still use that one router and change the bits..... lol
    Last edited by drcollie; 04-06-2016 at 11:20 AM.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: What's a reasonable price point for a custom wood queen bed?

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    There are many, many woodworkers that get into the business without a solid knowledge base on joinery and technique, it's pretty common to see it. Experience will teach them over time, however I don't want either myself or my customers to be their guinea pigs while they figure it all out. You would be amazed at the number of aspiring woodworkers I have turned away because their construction methods are inadequate. They go home tail tucked between their legs and a few come back later on, but most do not and I never see them again. They find another dealer to sell their wares to, a dealer that perhaps doesn't know about proper construction technique and that's fine as well.

    While the technique is out there for everyone to learn, the real key in furniture building is speed. Even the best woodworkers cannot often build efficiently, and this costs them money, and lots of it. For example, Bob can make a gorgeous 6 drawer chest and it takes him 10 weeks he wants to sell it retail for $ 8,000. Dan is much faster, he can make three chests in all equally as nice in 4 weeks time and wants to sell them for $ 4,000 each. Who is making more money? Bob is starving, Dan is doing OK. And yet, it will be Bob who 'romances' the build of his piece - what we call selling the sizzle - in hopes of drawing in someone to pay him the high price for his slow work. Dan set up a mini-production line and has efficiencies in his workshop build, and therefore makes better money. Dan has the meat, Bob has the sizzle.

    I used to have a cabinetmaker by the name of Doug St. Clair who did all our Chippendale and QA Dining chairs for us in his small shop. (Doug passed away several years ago from Lou Gehrig's disease). Doug was so fast for a 1-man shop other people in the business said it was impossible for him to make those chairs as fast as he did and sell them so aggressively to me. I took 100% of his output, and we always kept him busy. Doug had no wasted movement in his shop, everything was arranged for speed. And that was his key. Heres another example of that: There were 6 different router bits used in the building of our Chippendale Chair. Now you average woodworker would buy one expensive router and change the bit each time. Doug didn't do that. He bought six cheap Sears Craftsman routers and loaded each one with one of the 6 bits, then suspended them from the ceiling on springs. No changing bits and the routers where all at his workstation, he just had to reach overhead, pull down the one he needed and when done turn it off and let it retract itself then grab the next one. Speed was his secret weapon. More speed means more efficiency. More efficiency means lower prices. And lower prices translate into more volume and profit. He had it figured out. When I tell that tidbit to other woodworkers their eyes gloss over and they don't 'get it', they still use that one router and change the bits..... lol
    Lol well...as they say "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

  6. #16
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    Default Re: What's a reasonable price point for a custom wood queen bed?

    Oh, & I'm wondering if any of these new woodworkers you've turned away have just gone onto sites like Etsy & set up their own shops in addition to finding another furniture store willing to sell their wares?

    Obviously NOT this particular guy outta Cali I saw since he's on the opposite side of the country(I still need to contact him to ask if he's using any battens on the headboard to prevent warping, etc BEFORE I lump him into this "novice" group.)

    But, there are hundreds of shops on that site ONLY selling "solid wood" made goods: everything from wood pallet platform beds(really in right now if going for the hardcore, authentic industrial look. And yep, they're meant to look like those wood shipping pallets everything at Sam's & Costco is packed on...def not your kinda look! Lol) to tables, dressers, barstools, etc.

    Tons of more trendier shops on there too. Shops that are custom building Campaign & Hollywood Regency style dressers, chests, & credezas in lacquer. And, even more redoing discarded used furniture from the 70s-90s. Those that are redoing the older pieces are using a lot of that French Provincial stuff that was everywhere in the late 70s/early 80s by Thomasville, Dixie, Kincaid & Ethan Allen. Back then, those were quality furniture brands, with quality builds(BEFORE they began outsourcing their production to China!)

    I know refinishing a piece in lacquer is a much more difficult & involved process than simply just having it refinished. It requires an airtight space to do it correctly, where nothing like dirt & dust will come in contact with the piece during the painting process...yet, they're charging like $2,000+ for this stuff?!

    These are shops on Etsy, remember! Some might have an actual storefront. But, many don't & therefore are spared the extra costs that come with having a brick & mortar storefront they'd have to factor into their prices.

    I don't know enough about how the trendier custom shops are building their stuff to comment on whether $3,750 is a reasonable price for a lacquered 6 drawer Campaign style dresser. From what I've read & learned here, I'd suspect they could get away with building things more cheaply, using lesser grade wood because all of that will be covered by several thick coats of lacquer paint.

    Lol see? Before I found the forum, I thought "oooh custom, handmade 'solid wood' furniture made in America: that's what I need! Not all that Chinese crap they're slinging on Wayfair."
    Last edited by Asomer; 04-06-2016 at 11:01 AM.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: What's a reasonable price point for a custom wood queen bed?

    I know refinishing a piece in lacquer is a much more difficult & involved process than simply just having it refinished. It requires an airtight space to do it correctly, where nothing like dirt & dust will come in contact with the piece.

    Actually, that's not the case, sorry. Lacquer is very easy to work with, I use it all the time for touch-ups and repairs. In fact, two of my custom builders don't even have a spray room, they do it out in the driveway in all kinds of weather, even when its freezing. The only time you can't shoot lacquer is when there is high humidity, because it 'blushes' or has a whitish cast to it when you do. In the middle of summer, it sometimes has to wait for a less humid day or be done in some kind of area where there is either a dehumidifier or air conditioning to take some of that moisture out of the air. You can have impurities in lacquer, and you simply cut them down with 0000 Grade Steel Wool, which is what you do to rub the finish anyways. It's quite easy.

    Now if you are shooting enamels or urethane, you best have a dust-proof room.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: What's a reasonable price point for a custom wood queen bed?

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    I know refinishing a piece in lacquer is a much more difficult & involved process than simply just having it refinished. It requires an airtight space to do it correctly, where nothing like dirt & dust will come in contact with the piece.

    Actually, that's not the case, sorry. Lacquer is very easy to work with, I use it all the time for touch-ups and repairs. In fact, two of my custom builders don't even have a spray room, they do it out in the driveway in all kinds of weather, even when its freezing. The only time you can't shoot lacquer is when there is high humidity, because it 'blushes' or has a whitish cast to it when you do. In the middle of summer, it sometimes has to wait for a less humid day or be done in some kind of area where there is either a dehumidifier or air conditioning to take some of that moisture out of the air. You can have impurities in lacquer, and you simply cut them down with 0000 Grade Steel Wool, which is what you do to rub the finish anyways. It's quite easy.

    Now if you are shooting enamels or urethane, you best have a dust-proof room.
    Ok see, I was told lacquered pieces are much more difficult & the process is a much more involved multi-step process that requires ideally an airtight space or you won't get that glossy, smooth surface you're going for.

    These are painted & lacquered pieces, mind you.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: What's a reasonable price point for a custom wood queen bed?

    If you are talking high-gloss lacquer, then what you have to use is a powered wool buffing wheel to get that deep sheen. Still no need to worry about airtight space...not with Lacquer. When you wool or buff a surface of lacquer, you are removing a layer, so any impurities are removed with it.
    Duane Collie
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    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: What's a reasonable price point for a custom wood queen bed?

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    If you are talking high-gloss lacquer, then what you have to use is a powered wool buffing wheel to get that deep sheen. Still no need to worry about airtight space...not with Lacquer. When you wool or buff a surface of lacquer, you are removing a layer, so any impurities are removed with it.
    Yes, high gloss lacquer. I've been told by several ppl in the trade & a couple refinishers that high gloss lacquering a piece as opposed to simply refinishing it involves the dry room/air tight space, the time & patience to get all those successive coats slick as brand-new car, yada, yada...However, I'm also seeing a thousand & 1 DIY "How to Lacquer a..." on Pinterest & it looks fairly easy breezy enough: you rigg up a "tent" in the driveway outta tarps, NOT in the garage b/c of need for good ventilation, buy or rent the paint gun thingy & the painter's suit with the booties & you're good to go. Lol)

    Your furniture will probably look like a driveway DIY job afterwards, but if what I've been hearing is correct about the warranted extra cost, then I understand. It requires more equipment, more time, etc.

    My grandma's Hollywood Regency coffee table from the 80s I'm using now is a perfect example. A round, wood carved to look like bamboo(faux bois,) glass topped Ethan Allen coffee table from the late 70s/early 80s. It's in its original walnut stain finish. However, when I was in the process of giving away most of my junk furniture from my 20s to friends & family, the Hollywood Regency look had really started to gain traction again. In all the home decor mags, there'd be some high gloss lacquered nightstands or what have you, in really slick, pop out at ya' colors like black, bright white, tangerine/Hermes orange & Tiffany robin's egg blue. Whew sorry! Ramble much?? Lol

    So...,to FINALLY make a long story short: instead of just giving it away with all of my other "junk" furniture, I decided to have it lacquered in white instead. Hoping to sell it for a bit more than I would've in its original finish. But, the quotes I've gotten from 2 local, north Houston refinishers have been about $150-$275 more for the lacquered, high gloss, almost like an "automotive finish" white. From what I've researched on the lacquering process, that sounds about right.

    Andrea

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