Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info

[Asomer]

Duane,

You da' man! I love the way you just rattle off that information, including photos. The best part is that you're succinct. I, on the other hand, am: 1) too lazy, or, 2) once I do get started, too verbose.

Asomer,

Is the Antique Gallery in the Houston area one of those galleries that brings in shipments of European antiques? Some pretty decent finds can be had at places that do that. Also, when you wrote Round Rock, did you mean Round Top? I've lived in the Texas hill country for nearly three decades and Round Rock has never had any big draw for antiquing or junking. It's now mainly just an overgrown suburb, sadly. I bet you meant Round Top. Now, that is THE event! I used to go to Round Top when it was really nothing more than a few vendors setting up on the side of the road or in somebody's pasture. It has turned into quite the carnival atmosphere. It is ginormous and goes for miles. Back in the beginning, one definitely could find some spectacular deals. Now, the vendors know the big-deal, New York designer, muckity-mucks are in attendance and the prices have gone through the roof. Through...the...roof. But, it is fun to get out there and see what's what.

TXCajun

Duh, yes Round Top. NOT Round Rock!

The Antique Gallery is a HUGE warehouse where many, many small, local dealers can set up a full time booth as opposed to having their own brick & mortar storefront. Some are really great finds, others are just ppl peddling anything redone in Annie Sloan paint & it's not sold as an "antique," but as an antique look. We don't look too much in those booths. There's a booth there my mom really likes ran by this lady who goes to France about twice a year & brings back things to sell. Everything from case goods to toile linens & tableware. This particular booth is styled very heavy on the whole blue & white themed look. So, the owner's bringing back over a lot in those color palettes.

There's of course, finer, high-end antique galleries in Houston. But, The Antique Gallery is a place where you can find everything from that $100 chair that needs just a little TLC to bring it back to its former glory all the way to $7,500+ armoires. The good stuff goes quickly there, hence the weekly visits my mom makes. She doesn't wanna miss out on finding a gem, lol even tho she's running outta room for all this stuff & at this point is basically replacing former purchases. She's replaced the accent chairs in her foyer 3 times over the past 2 years!! Lol, that's how I got my pair of Louis XV armchairs. Haven't flipped them over to check out maker or age, but can tell just by their heft they're well made. I'm not a fan of the fabric the previous owner reupholstered them in(bronze striped dupioni,) but I don't wanna sell them or get rid of them because I know I'll regret it in 10 or so years. So, I'm thinking I'll just get them reupholstered in a neutral linen to fit in more with my tastes.

[drcollie]

The thing with antiques - you have to know what you are looking at. Dealers lie like mad, or don't know their wares and make stuff up. Its buyer beware BIG TIME. They will sell you the sizzle all day long, your job as the consumer is to make sure you are getting steak with that sizzle. The only way to do that is get an education, not rely on what they tell you. What's the best way to get an education? One-on-one with museum curators and high-end restorers. For example, I can - and have - spent all day at the MET in NYC in their furniture collection (they have a very good one) much to the chagrin of my wife and kids. I study furniture, I look for nuances. I know whom to call when in doubt. I don't deal in antiques myself, but I know more than the average Joe.

You can like a piece and be willing to buy it, however the key is to not overpay for it. You have to know what it is you are buying. Several years ago I had a good customer of mine bring in a period Slant Lid Desk in Tiger Maple, She paid $ 20,000 for it and thought it a Masterpiece by the Dunlap Clan out of New Hampshire and it looked really- really good. It needed a small repair and I told her I would take it up to Boston next trip I made there as I know one of the premier period desk experts in the country and he could fix it as well. I carefully hauled it up on a trip and in less than 3 minutes my expert declared it a fake. A really good fake, but not authentic and worth tops... $ 5,000. She was crushed, but he said the fake was so good, that only an expert could tell, but likely she would never get here money out of it. That's what you have to beware of. Price/Value.

[Asomer]

The thing with antiques - you have to know what you are looking at. Dealers lie like mad, or don't know their wares and make stuff up. Its buyer beware BIG TIME. They will sell you the sizzle all day long, your job as the consumer is to make sure you are getting steak with that sizzle. The only way to do that is get an education, not rely on what they tell you. What's the best way to get an education? One-on-one with museum curators and high-end restorers. For example, I can - and have - spent all day at the MET in NYC in their furniture collection (they have a very good one) much to the chagrin of my wife and kids. I study furniture, I look for nuances. I know whom to call when in doubt. I don't deal in antiques myself, but I know more than the average Joe.

You can like a piece and be willing to buy it, however the key is to not overpay for it. You have to know what it is you are buying. Several years ago I had a good customer of mine bring in a period Slant Lid Desk in Tiger Maple, She paid $ 20,000 for it and thought it a Masterpiece by the Dunlap Clan out of New Hampshire and it looked really- really good. It needed a small repair and I told her I would take it up to Boston next trip I made there as I know one of the premier period desk experts in the country and he could fix it as well. I carefully hauled it up on a trip and in less than 3 minutes my expert declared it a fake. A really good fake, but not authentic and worth tops... $ 5,000. She was crushed, but he said the fake was so good, that only an expert could tell, but likely she would never get here money out of it. That's what you have to beware of. Price/Value.

Duane, yes I've been to the MET's furniture collection & it's fascinating...but, anytime I'm there(I've lived in NYC twice now; with my 1st sublet literally on E 67th btwn 5th & Madison...so, was only a few blocks walk away from The MET,) if I can...I'm booking it to The Costume Institute at The MET!! Lol, as much as I love Decorative Arts, I equally, if not more so, LOVE the history of fashion!! The Costume Institute always has amazing pieces on view, either in an exhibition or in their regular showings.

Last time I was there, my mom, aunt & cousins & I all went to the Louis Comfort Tiffany exhibition: that was amazing!!

[Asomer]

The thing with antiques - you have to know what you are looking at. Dealers lie like mad, or don't know their wares and make stuff up. Its buyer beware BIG TIME. They will sell you the sizzle all day long, your job as the consumer is to make sure you are getting steak with that sizzle. The only way to do that is get an education, not rely on what they tell you. What's the best way to get an education? One-on-one with museum curators and high-end restorers. For example, I can - and have - spent all day at the MET in NYC in their furniture collection (they have a very good one) much to the chagrin of my wife and kids. I study furniture, I look for nuances. I know whom to call when in doubt. I don't deal in antiques myself, but I know more than the average Joe.

You can like a piece and be willing to buy it, however the key is to not overpay for it. You have to know what it is you are buying. Several years ago I had a good customer of mine bring in a period Slant Lid Desk in Tiger Maple, She paid $ 20,000 for it and thought it a Masterpiece by the Dunlap Clan out of New Hampshire and it looked really- really good. It needed a small repair and I told her I would take it up to Boston next trip I made there as I know one of the premier period desk experts in the country and he could fix it as well. I carefully hauled it up on a trip and in less than 3 minutes my expert declared it a fake. A really good fake, but not authentic and worth tops... $ 5,000. She was crushed, but he said the fake was so good, that only an expert could tell, but likely she would never get here money out of it. That's what you have to beware of. Price/Value.

Duane, how did he determine it was a fake so quickly? The wood's age? Maker's mark slightly off, or in wrong location? Type of hardware used, etc?

My mother's not a collector of truly fine, highly valuable antiques like her sister, my aunt. My mom's only just recently jumped on the antique craze within the past several years. So far, she's just buying anything she likes that's old, solidly built & in a particular style.

I'm curious on details like the dovetails, etc for the next time I'm out with her, I can hopefully assist in making sure she's not over paying for production furniture.

For instance, she has a really beautiful, light burled Louis XV style sideboard she bought for $3,500. It's an absolutely stunning piece!! But, she knows it's at most, nothing more than a early 20th century Louis XV style piece. I'd be curious to know if it even is that, or a later piece picked up at an estate sale that found its way to my mom? If I know what I'm looking for, next time I'm over there, I'll take a look at it & see what we've really got.

She's eyed a few ornate armoires, more highly carved & inlaid than the OP's piece, where the dealer was asking about twice the price of that sideboard. Personally, I think $7,000 is a bit high for a production made piece, even if it's 100 years old. I could be wrong & welcome the education.

I'd like to be able to spot instantly if what we're looking at is actually hand inlaid work as opposed to production inlaid(glue on, veneered, etc.) And, hopefully be able to roughly estimate the age by checking the dovetails, veneers or solid wood just by opening a door... things we can look for quickly, as informed consumers, without having to take it apart et all, in the shop?

Is there any definitive way to spot hand done inlaid work vrs factory, production inlaid work? Lol, I think I've somewhat got down what to look for in the dovetails. That English dovetail example you provided IS uniform in both its size & spacing with no scribe mark...so, that's a jig cut English dovetail?

I have a cast off "Victorian" chest of drawers my mom gave me(so she could put ANOTHER chest of drawers in its spot LOL.) It's heavier than all get out, deff doesn't look like anything I've seen in quite awhile, & has almost a crudely, country made look to it...as if it came out of some small carpenter's shop where someone specified function over form. There's some scroll work along the top & the hardware is impressive for the piece. We don't believe it's a collectable by any means...yet, this thread has made me curious about this little chest of drawers I've currently placed in my closet(it's not the prettiest thing, so it's not out in plain sight LOL.) Looking at the drawer sides, they're dovetailed & uniform in size & spacing. Which, would be correct for a later Victorian piece. However, the drawer bottoms feel somewhat thin to me, but they do not appear to be plywood & the back panel is solid & not nailed to the piece.

As I was literally just now looking at it; I spotted a hairline crack on 1 of the drawer fronts where the dovetails are. I haven't experienced any pull or feeling of that drawer losing its strength & the other side of that drawer is perfectly sound. There's no scribe marks, so I know this is a production made piece. But, is this crack gonna be a huge issue? Is there a quicky fix I can do? I'm attaching some photos I had to crop in order to fit them in. They may or may not help...some ppl may think this little chest isn't all that bad to look at; I guess I'm just not its biggest fan

[Asomer]

You can tell a lot about dovetails, even to some degree the origin of the piece.

Jig cut dovetails are very uniform across the sides of the piece, and usually are never as tight as a handcut dovetail. You can see more filler in them and the pins are equidistant from one another. Why is this important? Because a jig cut tells you it was made in a factory, or quasi-production method, and the handcut indicates a Benchmade piece of furniture that was done by one person start to finish. It affects the valuation and the price you pay for a piece. For example, if someone brings a chest of drawers into my store and says its from 1790 and was handmade in Colonial America and is a genuine period piece, I can tell by the dovetails if its English or American and if jig cut then I know that they are either unknowledgable or untruthful. Its one of the tools in the toolbox you use when valuing a piece.

Here's a typical jig cut dovetail off a J.L. Treharn piece I have in the store. Notice the pins are all the same size and equidistant from one another? Also, notice they don't fit exactly at the top and the bottom, and you can see a little airspace on some of the pins. This is very typical of a jig or machine cut dovetail.



Now here's a hand-cut dovetail from John Buchanan, notice the scribe marks? All handcut dovetails will have scribe marks (Some companies such as Eldred Wheeler put in fake scribe marks on their jig cuts), and see how the pins are fat and big? And how they line up with the drawer side top and bottom? And how the pins are tighter? Classic American handcut dovetail. 200 years from now someone in the know will say 'that piece was handmade'.



Here's a photo of a classic handcut English style dovetail, see how the pins are much thinner?



Why does it matter if its English or American? Simple...Period American Furniture has more value to it that the same era piece coming from England. There were lots of furnituremakers in England, few in the early days of the USA. A Chippendale Chest from 1790 that was made in Boston is worth more than the same era piece coming out of London. So knowing your styles of dovetails is just one more way to validate a claim on a piece.

Addendum: Know why wardrobes (armoires) were made to knock-down? As were many dining tables? So you could move them cross country easily. There were no big trucks and trailers until about 80 years ago, everything went by wagon. To have a piece that could come apart for moving was a big deal.

So, the "knock down" terminology that's being used in this thread & which Duane explained the origins of above, denotes an armoire's(in this instance,) or any large antique's correct age?

When looking at a large antique, if the term "knock down" is used in its description, if it truly is a knock down, it means the piece pre-dates larger, long distance transportation means being available to the mass public?

Or, is there a specific era, block of years into which all proper knock downs fall into? To be honest, this is my 1st time ever having heard this term & I have an aunt who's heavily into the antiques scene mostly in & around the Annapolis/Severna Park area, as well as Maryland's Eastern Shore. She collects American Colonial & Federal pieces & actually owns several period armoires & hutches...yet, I've never heard that term used in reference to them.

Lol, I'm like TXCajun: fascinated with it all

[drcollie]

The questions you are asking is why it's so difficult to tell from photos the story of a piece of furniture, there are many things that can tell you something about a piece and quite honestly it would take a photo set of about fifty pictures by someone who knows how to use a real camera to digitally evaluate a piece. That's why serious antiques have to be seen in person unless they come with a documented and verifiable provenance. A very long time ago, when The Keeping Room was a period reproduction store before the Market shifted us to leather upholstery, we used to have area experts come in from time to time and do seminars on how to recognize antiques, because the same thing that makes a valuable antique makes a high-quality reproduction. We had quite few classes back in the early 1980's and I learned a lot from those experts and continued my education on the road going to all the workshops of suppliers we use. Even today, John Buchanan is still teaching me - he knows quite a bit as his career was restoring high end antiques.

Just because a piece is old doesn't make it valuable. A lot of people make that mistake. There was junk made in the late 1700's, just as there is junk made now. The only valuable antiques are the ones that have the Art of Furniture Making going along the age, joinery and condition. Upper tier pieces all have a provenance with them, or documented and verified history. While it's quaint to think you might discover a $ 100,000 tea table at a garage sale or flea market, the truth is those tables are all well-known, documented and move from collector to collector. Like a rare Ferrari. Sure, one may pop up and make the news, but that's an oddity. So, using the $ 100,000 table as an example, you go to an Antique show and cruise the aisles, and come across one that looks exactly like that $ 100,000 table you saw in the auction book from Southeby's. The dealer has it priced at $ 15,000 and you are pumped up....dealer says "I got this at an Estate sale and it was squirreled away by an eccentric collector, but you can see it's period and shows all the hallmarks from being from the Goddard - Townsend workshop in Rhode Island which makes it extremely valuable. It even has their touchmark on the underside of the table" (and he flips it over to show you). Now, if you are a savvy buyer all your spidey senses should be tingling, because it has just been presented to you as a Goddard-Townsend piece, but guess what - REAL collectors know where every one of those are. Yet, its beautiful, the seller appears honest, so you negotiate down to $ 10,000 and you buy it and go home happy and brag on it to your friends. Expect you didn't buy a Goddard-Townsend. You bought a very good reproduction made by a guy like John Buchanan or perhaps it was an old one and all four legs and the side moulding were replaced. making the collectible value nil. That's what happens at antique shows.

Any good antique dealer will give you a WRITTEN receipt that will say something to the effect of "I guarantee this piece to be as represented, a genuine _______________, and should it not be such will refund all money in full for the piece if once inspected is deemed not as represented". And of course, they have to also have a shop they are working out of with a viable address, not a business card with a PO BOX number on it.

I know just enough about antiques to be aware that I don't know enough about them to buy top tier items, and a little knowledge is dangerous. Like in most things we buy in life, if a deal is too good to be true it probably is. The key is not to avoid buying old antiques, it not to overpay for them. And those traveling antique shows set up at the fairgrounds are just about the worst place possible you can go to really get taken.

[TXCajun]

The questions you are asking is why it's so difficult to tell from photos the story of a piece of furniture, there are many things that can tell you something about a piece and quote honestly it would take a photo set of about fifty pictures by someone who knows how to use a real camera to digitally evaluate a piece. That's why serious antiques have to be seen in person unless they come with a documented and verifiable provenance. A very long time ago, when The Keeping Room was a period reproduction store before the Market shifted us to leather upholstery, we used to have area experts come in from time to time and do seminars on how to recognize antiques, because the same thing that makes a valuable antique makes a high-quality reproduction. We had quite few classes back in the early 1980's and I learned a lot from those experts and continued my education on the road going to all the workshops of suppliers we use. Even today, John Buchanan is still teaching me - he knows quite a bit as his career was restoring high end antiques.

Just because a piece is old doesn't make it valuable. A lot of people make that mistake. There was junk made in the late 1700's, just as there is junk made now. The only valuable antiques are the ones that have the Art of Furniture Making going along the age, joinery and condition. Upper tier pieces all have a provenance with them, or documented and verified history. While it's quaint to think you might discover a $ 100,000 tea table at a garage sale or flea market, the truth is those tables are all well-known, documented and move from collector to collector. Like a rare Ferrari. Sure, one may pop up and make the news, but that's an oddity. So, using the $ 100,000 table as an example, you go to an Antique show and cruise the aisles, and come across one that looks exactly like that $ 100,000 table you saw in the auction book from Southey's. The dealer has it priced at $ 15,000 and you are pumped up....dealer says "I got this at an Estate sale and it was squirreled away by an eccentric collector, but you can see it's period and shows all the hallmarks from being from the Goddard - Townsend workshop in Rhode Island which makes it extremely valuable. It even has their touchmark on the underside of the table" (and he flips it over to show you). Now, if you are a savvy buyer all your spidey senses should be tingling, because it has just been presented to you as a Goddard-Townsend piece, but guess what - REAL collectors know where every one of those are. Yet, its beautiful, the seller appears honest, so you negotiate down to $ 10,000 and you buy it and go home happy and brag on it to your friends. Expect you didn't buy a Goddard-Townsend. You bought a very good reproduction made by a guy like John Buchanan or perhaps it was an old one and all four legs and the side moulding were replaced. making the collectible value nil. That's what happens at antique shows.

Any good antique dealer will give you a WRITTEN receipt that will say something to the effect of "I guarantee this piece to be as represented, a genuine _______________, and should it not be such will refund all money in full for the piece if once inspected is deemed not as represented". And of course, they have to also have a shop they are working out of with a viable address, not a business card with a PO BOX number on it.

I know just enough about antiques to be aware that I don't know enough about them to buy top tier items, and a little knowledge is dangerous. Like in most things we buy in life, if a deal is too good to be true it probably is. The key is not to avoid buying old antiques, it not to overpay for them. And those traveling antique shows set up at the fairgrounds are just about the worst place possible you can go to really get taken.

Duane,

Exactamundo!

I have exactly zero antique pieces of that $$$quality$$$ because 1) I do not have that kind of money tree, and 2) even if I did, I know juuuuuuust enough to not trust myself or others to get it right. And, one has to be cautious even with documented provenance. For example, I was interested in purchasing a set of large 1930's prints from a seller who seemed completely legit. He offered documented provenance. However, what he presented seemed a bit off from what I know to be authentic. As badly as I wanted those prints, I took a pass. Is he a crook, does he not know his own product, or am I unaware of an alternate authentic provenance? My guess is the last scenario, but I won't take that chance.

TXCajun

[TXCajun]

Asomer,

Knockdown wardrobes are sometimes referred to as breakdowns, as well.

When trying to date a piece, one has to consider primary and secondary woods used, wood shrinkage, veneer, glues (e.g., hide glue), type of nail/screw, joinery, design elements, finish, and condition of finish. And, that's just a start! It really is a total picture. Having said that, as Duane has stressed, there are excellent craftsmen (artists, really) who produce stunningly accurate reproductions, many of those pieces worth significantly more than the antique originals!

TXCajun

[Asomer]

When looking at a large antique, if the term "knock down" is used in its description, if it truly is a knock down, it means the piece pre-dates larger, long distance transportation means being available to the mass public?

Or, is there a specific era, block of years into which all proper knock downs fall into? To be honest, this is my 1st time ever having heard this term & I have an aunt who's heavily into the antiques scene mostly in & around the Annapolis/Severna Park area, as well as Maryland's Eastern Shore. She collects American Colonial & Federal pieces & actually owns several period armoires & hutches...yet, I've never heard that term used in reference to them.

Lol, I'm like TXCajun: fascinated with it all

Asomer,

Knockdown wardrobes are sometimes referred to as breakdowns, as well.

When trying to date a piece, one has to consider primary and secondary woods used, wood shrinkage, veneer, glues (e.g., hide glue), type of nail/screw, joinery, design elements, finish, and condition of finish. And, that's just a start! It really is a total picture. Having said that, as Duane has stressed, there are excellent craftsmen (artists, really) who produce stunningly accurate reproductions, many of those pieces worth significantly more than the antique originals!

TXCajun[/QUOTE]

TXCajun,
I love a good, unique older piece as much as anyone else. And, hopefully Stubadub's piece will fall nicely into that category once all is said & done(fingers crossed!!)

Your hypothetical placement of Stubadub's armoire amongst an industrial loft or minimalist interior would be beautiful, precisely because THIS piece will be the room's star!! Lol...& I'm a fan of those 2 particular decor themes

I've really learned a lot thru this thread & am highly interested now in hearing the final evaluation of Stubadub's "knock down armoire!"

I had never heard of either term: knock down, or break down. But, after seeing the terms in the links you provided earlier, I'm wanting to know more about them. Where & when break/knock downs started becoming prevalent in early American furniture, etc? It makes sense: before we could all just run out & hire a Uhaul, there were few options available for transporting our larger furniture items & there had to be a way to make that feasible. If a cabinetmaker or furniture company wanted to market to a larger audience, they had to look for a way to build something that could be dismantled & reassembled, while, also remaining structurally sound.

Lol, I can always use my trusty pal, Google & read further about where most of these break/knock downs originated & the time period in American history when these pieces were largely being built.

I was thinking because they were built for nothing more than ease of transporting, that perhaps they began showing up earlier in the 19th century when many people living east of the Mississippi River began their settlement west & then again towards the later part of the century when those same people moved even further west? Roughly(I'm just throwing out a very large rough estimate here,) ~1820-1900?

And of course, people made many arduous & difficult moves before this time frame. So, it would reason, they're earlier examples of knock/break downs pre-dating this, as well. It's just a fascinating subject, especially for someone like me who'll devour anything history related

Thanks for the input

[Asomer]

Duane,

You da' man! I love the way you just rattle off that information, including photos. The best part is that you're succinct. I, on the other hand, am: 1) too lazy, or, 2) once I do get started, too verbose.

Asomer,

Is the Antique Gallery in the Houston area one of those galleries that brings in shipments of European antiques? Some pretty decent finds can be had at places that do that. Also, when you wrote Round Rock, did you mean Round Top? I've lived in the Texas hill country for nearly three decades and Round Rock has never had any big draw for antiquing or junking. It's now mainly just an overgrown suburb, sadly. I bet you meant Round Top. Now, that is THE event! I used to go to Round Top when it was really nothing more than a few vendors setting up on the side of the road or in somebody's pasture. It has turned into quite the carnival atmosphere. It is ginormous and goes for miles. Back in the beginning, one definitely could find some spectacular deals. Now, the vendors know the big-deal, New York designer, muckity-mucks are in attendance and the prices have gone through the roof. Through...the...roof. But, it is fun to get out there and see what's what.

TXCajun

I know what you mean about the prices going thru the roof at Round Top. Last I was there, my grandmother spotted a foot stool that couldn't have been anything more than 100yrs old, tops! It was a tiny, little thing only about 14"W x 12"D: French in style with fluted, rosette carved legs. But, it had clearly been recently reupholstered as it was now in a leopard print velvet with brass nail heads(a look that's in vogue now, but not when this stool was 1st made.) Anyways, the seller wanted $300 firm for it. It was cute, but not $300 cute...long story short, my gma bought it regardless.

Round Top has turned into a carnival & now, with it being featured several times on popular shows like Fixer Upper, I'm thinking we haven't seen anything yet as far as how commercialized & crowded it can get!