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Thread: I'm done with Flexsteel

  1. #21
    Join Date
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    Default Re: I'm done with Flexsteel

    I don't really have a take on Made in Mexico vs Made in China, sorry.

    I prefer to support America's economy as best I can, not only in what I personally buy but in what I sell as well. I tend to think we have a pretty good work ethic in the USA and for the most part turn out a decent product, plus it keeps our citizens employed and that's the most important part of it all. Having said that, there are certain things you can't get in the USA any more and makers have to go overseas to source. Like leather hides, the nails and screws that hold it all together, the springs for the suspension, its just not available here any more. So you can't get hung up on that whole "Made in the USA" thing and percentage of content, or you'll make yourself bonkers. For example, even on the most USA-made upholstery company I know of - Hancock and Moore - all the bar stool frames are imported. Why? Cost is why. People already recoil at a barstool costing $ 1,300, if that frame was domestically made it would cost $ 2,300, per each. At a certain point an item has price saturation and is no longer viable, so what they do is import the frames, but they hold their makers to a very high standard. I've never had a frame failure on an H&M bar stool, they are made like tanks - so if it doesn't fail does it really matter where the frame is produced? Maybe it does for those American jobs - but then can you sell it for $ 2,300? I doubt it. See the double-edged sword that the people that run these companies face? You the consumer makes the decisions for them, by voting with your wallet. That's the long and short of it all.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Woodlands, Texas
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    328

    Default Re: I'm done with Flexsteel

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    I don't really have a take on Made in Mexico vs Made in China, sorry.

    I prefer to support America's economy as best I can, not only in what I personally buy but in what I sell as well. I tend to think we have a pretty good work ethic in the USA and for the most part turn out a decent product, plus it keeps our citizens employed and that's the most important part of it all. Having said that, there are certain things you can't get in the USA any more and makers have to go overseas to source. Like leather hides, the nails and screws that hold it all together, the springs for the suspension, its just not available here any more. So you can't get hung up on that whole "Made in the USA" thing and percentage of content, or you'll make yourself bonkers. For example, even on the most USA-made upholstery company I know of - Hancock and Moore - all the bar stool frames are imported. Why? Cost is why. People already recoil at a barstool costing $ 1,300, if that frame was domestically made it would cost $ 2,300, per each. At a certain point an item has price saturation and is no longer viable, so what they do is import the frames, but they hold their makers to a very high standard. I've never had a frame failure on an H&M bar stool, they are made like tanks - so if it doesn't fail does it really matter where the frame is produced? Maybe it does for those American jobs - but then can you sell it for $ 2,300? I doubt it. See the double-edged sword that the people that run these companies face? You the consumer makes the decisions for them, by voting with your wallet. That's the long and short of it all.
    I agree, that if you get hung up on where each & every component of an end product was sourced, it will def drive you crazy! Lol

    I drive a BMW & am under the impression most, if not all of my car was built in Germany. However, as much as I love my 3 series convertible, its maintainence requirements have been 1 thing after another pretty much every 6 months or so. In dealing with these issues & getting them taken care of, I've always requested OEM parts for the job. Some of these are genuine BMW & others, Bosch or whomever BMW sourced that particular part from. If I took apart the car piece, by piece even tho its VIN tag states "Made in Germany," I'm sure I'd find more than a few parts NOT from that country.

    I was unaware that H&M sourced their barstool frames from outside the USA. That's very surprising, but I understand why. Unless you're looking at very high-end, designer made barstools, not many ppl will fork over $2,300 for that item. Even the consumer who's bought their other pieces at significantly higher prices. It's a correlation thing: ppl can justify spending $10,000 on a well made, quality sofa that'll last years. They don't see that value in an item like a barstool. I like to think I'm 1 of those that can justify & swallow a higher price for quality, workmanship & exclusivity of the product...& even I'm not comfortable with spending anything really over $1,500 for a barstool.

    Unless you're eating most of your meals at your kitchen counter, etc it just doesn't make sense. They're dead space fillers if they're NOT being utilized regularly. In my aptmt, there's not a dining area. The living room flows directly into the kitchen; so, my counter stools are functional in that they're the only real designated for dining seating & I don't even use them! Lol

    Well, I was asking more along the lines of are the made in Mexico products of an equally inferior quality as the made in China? Or, because Mexico is much closer than China & their economy is very much dependent on ours, are the manufacturers choosing Mexico over China turning out a slightly better quality product?

    If I'm understanding you correctly; you're saying you haven't taken much notice of it because you opt to only deal with companies that are committed to continue manufacturing in the USA. I think all of us would love to practice that same mentality...but, it's as you say, becoming more & more difficult to do so. My high quality MacBook wasn't built here, nor my phone that I'm typing on, or much of the produce I'm buying weekly at the grocery store. It's frustrating, but it's the reality of a world economy.

    Thanks for your honest opinion...it's 1 of many reasons why I continue to come back daily to this forum & seek it out

  3. #23
    AreJay Guest

    Default Re: I'm done with Flexsteel

    Quote Originally Posted by drcollie View Post
    Let's say that Rocker Frame cost the probably $ 40 sourcing from China, I guarantee you it would be every bit of $ 250 from the USA. Big jump! So they get parts and components from all over the world to get the price down to a tolerable level to the consumer, that's why you see that 'made in China' sticker on the frame.

    In many cases, you cannot buy a fully-made USA item, it no longer exists.
    Duane:
    Thank you for your insightful and helpful reply, it must be obvious to manufacturers that buyers want items made in the USA, but what I think I want more is the manufacturer and seller NOT misleading me, knowingly.
    The tag says it all, "Made in America" which might mean North America, I get that. However, no matter what, Made in America is not Made in China. I get that we as Americans have a more for less, "Wal-Mart" sort of mentality. However, I did not go to Wal Mart, I went to what I thought was a nice furniture store, saw a tag, and bought the item. The sales persons wanted to sell me the $200 chairs, but they are crap. I told them what I wanted, I did not bicker on price, I think I paid $650 or $700 for the chair, I do not think I "should have known" that I was not getting what the tag said.
    The salesmen were right back on me when I went back, promising that the sofas, recliners, etc were indeed 100% Made in America, because they were all upholstered. Even though the said it was possible the frame on the chair was made in China.

    I bought a car recently, the sticker explained the origin of the major parts, and percentages, etc. There was no Made in America sticker on it, and I knew what I was getting.

    I guess if I really want to get a US made chair, I need to go find a place that makes the pieces right there.

    You know, actually our entire bedroom set (7 pieces) was Made in Arlington Washington, beautiful craftsmanship, and solid pieces, I do not think I am out of line expecting stuff to be what the tag says. And, when I had a problem with the top on the lowboy dresser, they made us a new top, amazing!!! I guess that was 10 years ago, that must be the good old days.

    How about the furniture that "The Amish" make in Pennsylvania? Do you tell people that in your store? I assume not.

    Again, thank for your insightful reply, business in America is not easy, but neither is being a consumer.

    AreJay.

  4. #24
    Join Date
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    Default Re: I'm done with Flexsteel

    You know, I have enough contacts that we can get most anything 100% Made in America for a customer if they desire. I have tried hard to wave the Red, White and Blue in my store for thirty years now, but if you hold to your Patriotism too tightly in business you can find yourself out of business, because the consumer won't pay the price. A typical scenario is someone comes in my store with a photo or catalog page of an item they saw at a store but it was made in China, and they want a stronger, USA-made version of it done correctly. When I give them an estimate of a projected cost, their face drops and they say "I'm not willing to pay that - are you sure?" and that is what happens 95 % of the time.

    The average American Woodworker tries to book his shop time at $ 40 an hour (plus materials), vs say $ 120 an hour for a car mechanic in a dealership garage. That has to pay the overhead and business expenses and leaves them with an annual salary of around $ 35K to $ 40K per year. You don't ever see them living in nice homes or driving new trucks and it's not a career that pays well, the car mechanic makes much more money. Because of the relatively low subsistence wages in this trade you do not see people clamoring to learn it and for the few that do its because they love the art, not to make money. There is simply a lot of labor to make things right. Since the consumer says 'it must be made for less' than how to deal with that? You can use untrained or semi-skilled workers, you can use cheap materials, you can automate, or you can take steps out of the construction to make it 'good enough' instead of doing it right. And you can take it offshore to where the labor force works for much less. And this is what happens.

    Companies that adhere to the "Made only in America" mantra in the furniture business are the one that are usually stranding by the fax machine waiting for an order to come in. Meanwhile stores like Bob's Discount Furniture and Ashley's flourish with their cheaper than cheap goods and grow their businesses, and those are the ones getting rich off furniture. They pay $ 180 for a faux leather sofa, it costs $ 200 to ship and land it from China in bulk and they sell it ON SALE for $ 799. Gross Profit Margin 52 %. Meanwhile, your domestic dealer is paying $ 2,500 for a quality made in the USA leather sofa, $ 150 to land it and selling it for $ 3,600. Gross Profit Margin 26%. Who's making money? The guy selling the cheap stuff. If the $ 3,600 sofa returned the same margin it would have to retail at $ 5,600. Now you have consumer backlash on price. The fact that the $ 799 sofa is a 2 year piece at best vs 30 years on the quality one is a moot point, the consumer sees the dollar signs more than anything else. So it's difficult to balance these factors as both a maker and a retailer.

    I can build you a rocker that will last for generations. It will still be around in 300 years. Know what people say when I tell them that? "I'll be dead then, so I don't need that". And they miss the point. That rocker made right will never squeak, wiggle, loosen a joint or deteriorate unless it's left outside to weather. And that rocker I build will be $ 2,000. It will have the best joinery, and the best materials and is put together by a master craftsman. But do you want to pay $ 2K for one? Probably not.

    And my thought's on "Amish-made" furniture are well-known. For the life of me, I have no idea why folks think "Amish-made' is a sign of quality and craftsmanship, I think they watched the movie 'Witness' one too many times. I don't sell Amish-made furniture nor would I ever buy a piece for myself because I've never met an Amish woodworker that knows the art of cabinetmaking. They are at best carpenters, but that doesn't make them cabinetmakers.
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  5. #25
    Join Date
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    Default Re: I'm done with Flexsteel

    We have that sub-section for non-furniture topics, no one ever uses it!

    http://www.myfurnitureforum.com/foru...5-The-Campfire

    I will move these threads there under CAR TALK
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  6. #26
    mrsocks Guest

    Default Re: I'm done with Flexsteel

    Hi Duane, I have a somewhat off topic question for you and noticed you were not taking PM's. I am a brand new member (see my intro post of this afternoon). Let me say I agree with your ethics wholeheartedly and am willing to cut into profits to maintain them if needed. Anyway, I am currently looking for some fabric that Flexsteel uses and am trying to get it from the jobber or mill rather that pay retail. I use 6 or 7 national companies for fabrics but am stumped by this one as they seem to add their own descriptions (part numbers, color names, etc) for their stuff. A fellow named Tom, in Flexsteel's accounting office assured me that the fabric was available through jobbers but could tell me no more. Any ideas? When I have more time I will post my website on my personal page if you care to take a look at it....sounds like you'd appreciate some of the things we create and repair around here. Thank you Duane (et al) for your time!
    Socks

  7. #27
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    Default Re: I'm done with Flexsteel

    That's Needle-in-a-Haystack sort of thing, there's no quick and easy way to find that out. About the only way I can think to do that is to call Flexsteel and tell them you are the attorney for Ms. So n' So and she has a terrible rash that has made her very ill and hospitalized from sitting on that fabric and is going to bring a lawsuit against Flexsteel or the Mill that makes it. Then ask how you can contact the Flexsteel legal team and or the Mill. Betting they will give up the Mill pretty fast.... not that I would ever do that...lol
    Duane Collie
    Straight answers from thirty-six years in the business.
    My Private Messages are Disabled - Please ask questions here in the forum.

  8. #28
    discus82 Guest

    Default Re: I'm done with Flexsteel

    Just bought my first Flexsteel rocker recliner a few months ago. Huge mistake. I threw out a 25 year old Berkline recliner that was still more comfortable than this new Mexico made piece of crap. I literally can't sit in this chair. As soon as you sit, you lay so far back that your feet leave the ground. I'm 5'10", shouldn't be this way. You can't sit in this chair without reclining it. Reclined, it's a little better, but the bar on the tailbone was a problem day one. The chair doesn't rock far enough forward to exit the chair. Horrible all the way around.

  9. #29
    Stick Guest

    Default Re: I'm done with Flexsteel

    Quote Originally Posted by discus82 View Post
    Just bought my first Flexsteel rocker recliner a few months ago. Huge mistake. I threw out a 25 year old Berkline recliner that was still more comfortable than this new Mexico made piece of crap. I literally can't sit in this chair. As soon as you sit, you lay so far back that your feet leave the ground. I'm 5'10", shouldn't be this way. You can't sit in this chair without reclining it. Reclined, it's a little better, but the bar on the tailbone was a problem day one. The chair doesn't rock far enough forward to exit the chair. Horrible all the way around.
    Then why did you buy this chair ?

  10. #30
    discus82 Guest

    Default Re: I'm done with Flexsteel

    Quote Originally Posted by Stick View Post
    Then why did you buy this chair ?
    My wife liked it, I was against it from the beginning. She now sees the error of her ways, but doesn't mean she'll learn from it...

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