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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Hi Duane,
Curious: if a customer orders a seat cushion as "extra firm," will it be a density of 21 oz. in the same Qualux material, or is all Qualux of the same density? Or does an "extra firm" order completely change the materials used for the insert?
Thanks!
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
An excellent question.
The standard seat core density on Hancock & Moore is 16 oz Qualux in leather covers. By ordering extra firm it goes to 21 oz. You can even step up beyond that in density if you like, though I don't recommend it as the cushion can get too firm.
Now on the backs of pieces, Fiber Filled is standard on all pieces. When someone wants a somewhat firmer back on a loose cushion we order them 'extra full'. A Qualex core is an optional extra cost feature for back cushions but I don't recommend it. Likely it will be too firm and if you were not happy with it, you would have to buy a set of one of the other cushions i.e., fiber fill, ultra down, etc.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Duane,
Thanks for the explanation. I do not like the "puddling" effect on seating, and this definitely explains the difference between standard and Ultra-Down. Myself, I like a firmer seat, because I have neck issues and have to remember to sit up straight to avoid pain. My husband likes a cushy seat, but he rarely sits anywhere but in his recliner.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
You will always get some puddling on a leather seat, and from any maker. It's unavoidable because all leather stretches with use. Cowhide (female) has more elasticity than Steerhide (male), so Hancock and Moore uses only GRADE A Steer hides for all its leathers. When you see a mid-to-low level leather sofa or chair and the seat leather is so loose you can pick up a fold in your hand, that's cowhide.
Within Steerhide, you can change the cushion density to make the puddling less evident by going up in stages. For example , 18 oz is standard, 21 oz is extra firm, 24 oz is super firm, etc...all the way up to around 45 oz which is what they use in tufted top ottomans. You have to be careful though, or you'll be sitting atop a park bench if you get them too firm. I discourage anyone ordering more than a 21 oz core, I think they won't like anything firmer.
The Ultra down is the same 18 oz core as standard, but the top quarter of the core is cut away and replaced with a sleeve of down and feathers to give a plush loft. You will see more puddling as a result, but also you get a lot of sink-in comfort as well.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Damask
I was also thinking, since both Standard and Ultra Down cores are put into the exact same casings, shouldn't the Ultra Down look actually fuller (since they have an extra layer) and stretch/ smooth the leather of the casings even nicer than the Standard cores... I know everyone says opposite, Ultra Down causes the leather to look "relaxed", "more rumpled / puddled" but why exactly...?
For those who had a chance to sit on both Standard and Ultra Down - is the difference in comfort significant or minimal? Are Standard ones much harder, both on seats and backs?
If you have Standard ones, how long did it take to break them in? Once broken in, they stay at the same "hardness level"?
Also, when shopping for a fabric sofa a while ago, I noticed that when I sat on a cushion, the sides would often rise quite a bit creating open space between seat cushions. Would this effect be more probable with Standard or Ultra Down cores on a leather sofa, or I shouldn't worry about it with H&M leather piece?
I have to decide on the cores for our Sundance this week and I still have no idea what to do...
I actually ordered the Sundance with the springdown cushions. That was what was on the floor sample I sat on and I liked them, so that was what I ordered. I found out later that normally they don't put the springdown cushions in the leather sofas. But I will say, they don't need to be messed with after you sit on them and if you like a firm seat cushion they fit the bill. I find them very comfortable to lie down on. When you sit on one cushion, the sides do not rise up and create open space between the cushions. If I were to order again, I would probably order the same cushion, but I like a really high crown so I would see if I could get it overfilled also.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Duane, do you think H&M will replace cushions for chairs that I bought in 1995? At the time I had no idea who Hancock & Moore was, and I forgot until just now about their generous policy. They may not even make them any more.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Two caveats to the replacement policy:
1) You have to be the original owner of the piece and have proof of purchase.
2) They still must have a pattern (and you will need the model number of the piece).
Because most people lose their receipts and/or cannot identify their model number, I recommend ALWAYS placing your original receipt (or a copy) inside the zipper of one of the cushion casings. That way you always have it.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
I am wondering if H&M still has the policy of not keeping cushion cores in stock? We want to buy two matching leather sofas and found two different colored H&M Austin (lowback) sofas on the floor at a local store. The Cavalier Oxblood was extremely comfortable but the Document Chestnut was much less so. The rep relayed to the store that the reason for the two different feels could be that H&M changed suppliers for the cushion materials (the store had sent pictures of the cushion core tags/labels) and the red sofa was the previous supplier's cushion material whereas the brown sofa was the new supplier's. The rep said that H&M still had some of the previous supplier's cushions in stock and we could order our sofas specifying that we wanted them to be made with those "old" (previous supplier's) cushions. Any information you can give me about this will be greatly appreciated. I have been shopping and researching since last September and would like to find my sofas.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
I have been to the factory many times and cushion cores are not kept in stock, they are all "Just in Time" delivery and made to order by their supplier in Virginia. They arrive on trucks weekly at the factory, they have no room in the production facility for storage of all the cushions they would need to warehouse. To the best of my knowledge they have not changed core suppliers, however there are variances in each cushion core made, and some are better than others. Also, Cavalier is a thicker and stiffer leather than Document, and that will change the sit feel as well to some degree.
The standard core is an 18 OZ Qualux Poly Dac, you can bump it to a 21 oz at time of order if you want it firmer, or even a 24 oz. If you want softer, then you go to Ultra Down cores (extra cost).
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Duane, just wanted to reaffirm that Hancock & Moore is an amazing company with beautiful furniture and wonderful customer service. I spoke to a very nice customer service representative about replacing the spring down cushions in my 1995 upholstered chairs. Not only did they still have the cushions for the back and the seat, she offered to replace them free of charge if the company I bought the chairs from couldn't find my purchase in their records (because I didn't have the original invoice). Fortunately, the furniture company was able to order the cushions.
They came in two huge boxes, and I didn't pay a cent for shipping or anything else. And now my chairs look as beautiful as they did in 1995. H&M is truly special. And thanks to you, Duane, for making me aware of their replacement policy.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
My pleasure! I just ordered a set of cores for a customer of mine who took delivery of their furniture 23 years ago today. Truly the stuff can - and will - last if you take care of it.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
I am going to purchase a Hancock & Moore Your Way sofa. I just have to select the leather! I have seen and sat in two of the Your Way sofas. One of them was done in Angelo Graphite and the other in Piazza Tobacco. Because I like to see what I am getting, my first choice was to select one of these leathers for my sofa. But unfortunately, I could not find the color that I am looking for in either Angelo or Piazza. I did find colors in Kip, Gunner, Dream and Document. But I am struggling to visualize how these will be different in look/feel from Angelo or Piazza. Do you have any insight on these styles? Also, although the store indicated that both of these sofas had the ultra down seat and back, the one with Piazza was super firm, whereas the one in Angelo was super squishy. They are going to check their records to confirm the information is correct, but can I assume that the difference between Angelo and Piazza is not the cause? After reading your posts about the ultra down vs standard, I'm leaning towards standard but possibly changing the 1/2" wrap to the 3/4" extra wrap. And I'm not sure if it makes sense to also ask for the back cushions to be extra full. I don't prefer sloppy/saggy, but I want it comfortable :) Thank you for your help!
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
All the leathers that you are looking at are finished (painted) hides that come out of Chinese tanneries, so they will pretty much all perform the same, the only differences will be the ones you can see such as sheen, coloration, and hand (texture/softness) of the hide. My personal favorite of those you list is the Angelo, as I think it's richer looking and I like the matte sheen on it. However, I'm a pure aniline guy and rarely buy finished leathers for my own use.
Standard cores across the line are 18oz Dupont Qualux Poly-Dacron, if one is softer than it could be Ultra Down. There is a variance from frame to frame due to spring up rates, however the cores don't change, and those two leathers would not affect it.
I've never heard of changing the "wrap" from 1/2" to "3/4", that may be terminology I don't used in conversations with Hancock and Moore. Only you can determine what is comfortable. Good luck!
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
I've never heard of changing the "wrap" from 1/2" to "3/4", that may be terminology I don't used in conversations with Hancock and Moore. Only you can determine what is comfortable. Good luck!
I read about it on this thread, but I may not have used the correct terminology. Here's what it said: "If you want more fullness (crown) in a cushion, that is extra-full and again at no up charge. Standard cushion wrap is done of 1/2" specialty fiber and they will wrap it with 3/4" instead."
Does this make sense?
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Yes, we use the term's "extra firm" and "extra full" if customers want more seat firmness or more crown. I do caution people against doing both, however. My experience is that some folks are overly focused on leather puddling, and if you get too much crown and too much firm in the seat, you won't like the way it sits. You should go one or the other, but not both (that's my recommendation, anyway)
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
New at the store - just installed today.
I requested Hancock and Moore make up a set of extra casings/cushions to fit a 9840 City sofa and am going to use as a demonstrator in the store. Now you can come in and try one seat with standard cores, one seat with Ultra Down seat and back, and one seat with Q21 Extra Firm Seat and Extra Full back. I don't think any other dealer in the country has this available to try out - so no more guessing, now you can actually see how they feel.
Attachment 9971
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
That was a great idea ! Your customers will love it.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
I am looking to purchase an Austin sectional but not in leather but with fabric upholstery. Getting confused with all the cushion choices. Is the ultra down an option with choosing fabric or should I consider spring down or standard?
Will there be puddling with fabric on the upgrade options? I also like that with fabric I can flip my seat cushions, so is this only possible with the standard cores? The only choice I got to test was the ultra down on a leather sofa. I did find it quite nice. Any input into what would work best for me with fabric upholstery would be appreciated.
One other concern, is that we like to lie across our sofa, so would the extra full cushions be uncomfortable to lie across?
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Fabric pieces from H&M come with Spring Down marshall units as standard, and I would stay with them exactly as they are. They are perfect. You can get into specialty cushions but its rarely done in fabric and I have no experience with them. I have never had the first customer change cores in an H&M fabric piece. The core construction for leather pieces is entirely different and does not cross over to the fabric ones.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
I know this is an old thread about cushion inserts, however, I am interested in replacing the inserts I the seat cushions of our Arrington sofa. What is the best way to do that? Should I contact the factory or the store I purchased my sofa from?
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
You go through your dealer and they can arrange it. You'll probably need the serial number from the sofa which is on the label under the cushions.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Danw99
You go through your dealer and they can arrange it. You'll probably need the serial number from the sofa which is on the label under the cushions.
Thank you!
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
HA! Its because the CEO of H&M likes Ultra Down cores! So all the pieces at Market have them...simple as that.
I've never sold the first Memory Down cushion on any brand of furniture. I don't like that stuff, it leaves impressions and makes for a 'warm' or 'hot' sit (or sleep if in a mattress).
Yes, the regular cores will most definitely break in. About end of July....
Drcollie,
I realize this thread is a few years old but if you’re still active on here I am hoping you can shed some light on a H&M sofa cushions question for me.
Thanks in advance! 🙂
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
What is your question?
How bad is the “puddling” that happens over time with the down blend cushions?
We ordered the September sofas (2 of them) in leather and down blend cushions. When we got our sofas and I opened up the cushions, I discovered that they are not the down blend. So I called the store we bought them at and spoke to the salesperson. At first she tried to tell me that that’s not what we ordered and now after speaking to her manager we are being told that the down fill are inferior to the ones we got and we are better off with those. Supposedly there are “too many issues with the leather and down fill cushions.” So now we are unsure if that is really the case or we’re just being played. At this point I just feel like I don’t trust our salesperson and any “information” we are being given.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
I have the down in my City Sofa, and I have no problem with puddling after a year. Obviously I can't tell you what will happen after 5 or 10 years, but I rotate cushions every few months and any minor puddling in my favorite seat goes away. That said, I am the only one using the sofa most of the time, so a sofa that gets heavy use would be different. It doesn't sound like a place I would buy from again, though, if they don't take responsibility for their errors. Mistakes can happen, but this sounds like very poor customer service to me, and I would hate to see what they would do if there was a bigger error.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SueCT
I have the down in my City Sofa, and I have no problem with puddling after a year. Obviously I can't tell you what will happen after 5 or 10 years, but I rotate cushions every few months and any minor puddling in my favorite seat goes away. That said, I am the only one using the sofa most of the time, so a sofa that gets heavy use would be different. It doesn't sound like a place I would buy from again, though, if they don't take responsibility for their errors. Mistakes can happen, but this sounds like very poor customer service to me, and I would hate to see what they would do if there was a bigger error.
That’s our thoughts too. They could have said “sorry we messed up on the order.” But no, first they tried to make it look like it was our fault but since I stood my ground telling them that we looked at the inside of the cushions at the store and wanted exactly what was on the showroom floor so now the story has changed. And we just don’t know what to do at this point. Because we now have 2 sofas that are not what we ordered and we don’t even know what to believe. Do you by any chance have any contact information of someone that is knowledgeable about the different cushions? So I could get some real information.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Hi, Guyvoronsky.
Do you have your invoice? Typically, the invoice specifically lists all the details. Well, the invoices I have received do, but maybe not all businesses do that. Regardless, I do believe I'd hold firm and do my level best to get them to fulfill the order as you requested.
TXCajun
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
I am sure Duane will get back to you when he has a chance, but there is also a large amount of information on the cushions right here as well.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
There's not really a Down/Blend cushion core from Hancock and Moore, go to the first page on this thread and look at the first post, and then about the fourth post to see what they offer. 90% of all upgraded cushions are the Ultra Down, which is featured in the photo on Post # 1. While these may puddle a little, it's not excessive. Half of all my H&M sales are in Ultra Down, the rest in standard cores. I almost never sell the other options.
Did you pay for upgraded cores? If you did, then you are entitled to get either a refund on the upgrade or the actual cushion cores themselves. It's easy for the dealer to leave them off the order (I have before, mistakes happen) but just as easy to make it right for the customer. If you didn't pay for them or they are not specified on your order form, then it becomes more complicated because the upgrade cost at time of order is much, much less than buying them outright after the pieces are delivered.
There are no "issues" with the Ultra down at all, it's just a preference And since H&M gives you core replacement at no charge for the life of the piece (to the original owner only) then if they sack out, you just ask for new ones.
You have a tag on the seat deck that looks like this. You can call H&M customer service at 828-495-8235 and give them the number on your sofa(s). They can tell you the exact build spec on the sofa with this code number as to the build.
Attachment 12580Attachment 12580
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TXCajun
Hi, Guyvoronsky.
Do you have your invoice? Typically, the invoice specifically lists all the details. Well, the invoices I have received do, but maybe not all businesses do that. Regardless, I do believe I'd hold firm and do my level best to get them to fulfill the order as you requested.
TXCajun
I have the invoice but it just has the name of the sofa on it, no other details. 😔
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Yes I do but it just has the name of the sofa, no other details on it. 😔
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
I’m guessing the ultra down is what they had on the sofas at the store. At the time of order, our assumption was that we were ordering/paying for down but since that’s not what was ordered I honestly don’t know if we did or not? And as I mentioned earlier, I just can’t believe what they tell us now. 😖 Especially since they’re trying to convince us that we’re better off without the down in the long run. And that down isn’t necessarily more comfortable, it’s just a perception.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
As I understand the down cushion is an upcharge to the customer. Perhaps Duane can answer if H&M has a similar cushion upcharge for a dealer floor sample. If so why would they pay extra to display what they now claim is an inferior cushion?
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lloyd
As I understand the down cushion is an upcharge to the customer. Perhaps Duane can answer if H&M has a similar cushion upcharge for a dealer floor sample. If so why would they pay extra to display what they now claim is an inferior cushion?
According to the manager, and I quote, “they didn’t even realize that they still had the down cushion in leather sofas on the showroom floor.” 🤷*♀️
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
I think you're being fed a line. Don't think that the Ultra Down is not as good - but they're just not copping responsibility for the order mistake. Whether that's on them, or on you (for not checking the receipt), that's really what you're debating.
Right now the company is backtracking in 1) fessing up if it was an ordering mistake 2) trying to denigrate a product (e.g. ultra down) so that you don't reorder and 3) now going the hey we don't even know what we have on our floor. They're clearly not going to try and take responsibility, so it's up to you to decide how to pursue.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Where you go from here kind of depends on where you are in the purchase process. If you have accepted delivery, and paid in full, your options are more limited. If you refused delivery or refused to pick it up because it is not what you ordered you have more options. Like cancelling the order and then fighting for or forfeiting your deposit. You said you didn't realize until you opened the cushions. If that is the case, did you open them when it arrived because it didn't sit right and then refuse it, or did you find out by "accident" and you didn't really notice it at first? Did you pay by credit card and can you contact the credit card company to dispute the charge because you did not receive the correct merchandise and file a complaint? Is the store a member of the BBB and could you ask them to mediate it? Are you willing to pay part of the cost of replacing them? The question really is not if one cushion or another is really any good, it is can you live with the sofa you got, and how much are you will to fight and for how long to try to change it. It might be time to ask the store in as non accusatory a way as possible, to contact H&M, explain the misunderstanding, and find out what it would take to get them replaced. Then if necessary, offer to pay half of the cost, but not until they get back to you with what it will take or I am afraid they will just double the actual cost and then ask you to pay half. Lastly, if they did not even know the display model was ultra down, then they are not invested in having ultra down on the floor, and they would presumably be fine with you just switching out the cushions for the ones in the store, if they fit. I assume also that you can, if you have not already done so, taken it up the ladder in the furniture store from salesperson to customer service to management. This seems to be more about conflict resolution than cushion quality. Any H&M cushion I believe will be high quality.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sam_g
I think you're being fed a line. Don't think that the Ultra Down is not as good - but they're just not copping responsibility for the order mistake. Whether that's on them, or on you (for not checking the receipt), that's really what you're debating.
Right now the company is backtracking in 1) fessing up if it was an ordering mistake 2) trying to denigrate a product (e.g. ultra down) so that you don't reorder and 3) now going the hey we don't even know what we have on our floor. They're clearly not going to try and take responsibility, so it's up to you to decide how to pursue.
Yes, it’s our fault for not questioning why the invoice had no details but honestly at the time we didn’t even think twice about it. New lesson learned I guess.
I just took to the internet in hopes of finding more information on the different cushions from a third party since I honestly don’t believe anything they tell us now. Because I get it, business wise it’s not in their best interest to reorder 2 sets of cushions. As for us, down cushions is what we were looking for in sofas so after spending so much money I don’t want to be disappointed 5yrs down the road that I didn’t get what I really wanted. But at the same time I wanted to make sure that maybe this order mistake isn’t actually a blessing in disguise so to speak.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
Dealers get floor models with free ultra down cushions if they want. I don’t put them in all my floor models personally since I like to offer options and not every piece sits better with ultra downs. The free ultra down for dealers is a small bonus to let the dealer mark down his floor model a little.
If you want the Ultra Down seats and/or backs, they should work it out and order them for you. Had you ordered from my store, at time of order, you would have paid $ 160 for Ultra Down Seats and $ 130 for Ultra Down Backs for each sofa (they may charge more as every dealer has their own pricing structure). I think it would be reasonable for you to offer to pay that upgrade charge. The cores are more expensive to buy outright vs upgrade when the pieces are made, however they are making enough profit on the sale to easily cover the difference.
Alternatively, if you feel it was presented to you "As Shown" and no mention was made of the additional charge for Ultra Down, then an argument can be made you should not have to pay the upgrade fee.
You are not at fault. As a customer you’re not expected to know the difference, as a dealer they are. It’s on them. Don’t let them off the hook if you would like those cores. What amazed me is how any dealer would want to avoid getting you want you would like when it's so easy to rectify the issue and keep you as a satisfied customer. We all make mistakes, the key is how you take care of them after the fact.
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Re: Hancock & Moore Cushions
On the Hancock & Moore standard 16 oz foam cushion, what density is that equal to when measured by weight? Most mfrs measure by how much a 12x12x12 block of foam weighs, I was just trying to figure out what the H&M would be comparable to. Also, how do you measure the resiliency? I read high resiliency is better but not sure how to tell which sofas have it.
No one in my area has many H&M sofas in stock, but I did find a chair with a standard cushion to sit in, and liked the feel of it better than the down. I’m also looking at Stickley and Bradington-Young sofas, and want to figure out if I could get a comparable cushion from them.