The Tough Customer

I have little patience for salespeople that don't know their product lines. The Gas Cooktop in our home is on its last legs, it was a builder grade GE Profile with a telescopic downdraft and its 11 years old. Its been giving me trouble for the past five years and I've replaced about $ 800 worth of parts on it. Now my wife has light the burners with a butane lighter since the ignition no longer works on it and I said "Its time for it to go".

I research the internet for what's out there. Acck! They're not cheap! I read the reviews, decide that another GE is the best pricepoint, but I really don't like what they build very much. Still, the GE series is everywhere. We go to HH Gregg, the big appliance and TV store in town and I tell the very nice - but clueless - salesman what I'm there for. He fumbles around and asks "Telescopic downdraft? What's that?" Oh boy....this is going to go nowhere fast. He walks my wife and I over to a computer and starts to search the GE website and says "They don't make it". I correct him and said "Yes they do, there are three models, look under VENTILATOR instead of the cooktop sections." He has no understanding of this whole 2-piece concept and I bid him goodbye and we leave. I have no time for on-the-job-training with these guys.

Next day, we go to Bray and Scarff, but I don't care to repeat the HH Gregg experience so I call up and ask the guy if he knows his product lines, because I don't want to drive 45 minutes each way for him to page through the internet catalogs with me watching as he tries to figure out what will fit into the countertop hole. He says "I've been here 20 years, I know my product lines." And he did. After explaining all the features of various units, we bought a Thermadore system from him which was more than we wanted to spend, but clearly it was superior to the GE product line. At the end of the day, I was willing to pay for knowledge and service, along with a nicer product. It was full retail, too - they wouldn't even cut me a break on installation!

Now, here's the good part....

The very next day, I got a call from a gentleman shopping locally for Hancock and Moore. He was much like me on the cooktops - said he was tired of salespeople that are clueless and wants to speak to someone that knows the brand. I told him to "Come on in, I know more about H&M than anyone in the Washington DC area". He was skeptical, but he did show up with his wife. He walks in and says "So you say you know your stuff on this furniture, well then - I have a test for you to see if you do. Explain to me what a Married Cover is in leather furniture, lets see if you know, because I do."

I laughed and said "That's all you got? That's not even a hard question!" And off we went. Well, he peppered me with another dozen questions like ground balls coming off a baseball field and I fielded them all easily. Then we got talking about cars and motorcycles and his train collection and what the best restaurants are in the area and after an hour or so felt like old friends. I enjoyed talking with him and his wife. At the end of their visit, he had to go home and measure his room for the pieces he wants. I said to him "Do you want a price quote? We didn't even discuss actual prices for the pieces you are interested in." He said " Are your prices competitive?" I told him they were indeed and he then told me "That's all I need to know. I am going to buy from you because I like the way you do business and you know your craft. That's important to me."

I had to chuckle when they left. I found myself to be the exact same kind of customer when I'm buying a new cooktop as he is shopping Hancock and Moore.

I purchased a GE convection oven for my last home. I went to a local appliance dealer and spoke with a salesperson who, although nice, didn't know the product line as well as I would have liked. I went back later and ended up buying from the manager, who did know the product line and ended up recommending a range they did not have on the floor. The last time I was at that store, and it may well be the last time in more senses than one, the salespersons were chatting it up with each other and, I guess, didn't think I was there to buy or perhaps didn't care. That, unfortunately, is part of the price we pay for heavy discounting, Internet sales, and the associated downward pressure on salesperson's income. Twenty years ago, you would have expected a store that sells mid- to high-end appliances to have knowledgeable salespersons and good customer service (this place sells Bosch, Jenn-Air, Viking, Aga....) Today you're much more likely to be dealing with somebody who's much more transient, and will almost certainly be dealing with an employer that can't afford to pay the wages necessary to create and retain a highly knowledgeable sales staff. (This store used to be the go-to place in town for cameras, where you could talk to a salesperson who would be able to answer pretty much any question you had about the inventory, or about photography in general; with the digital revolution and online sales, last time I was there the guy at the camera counter wasn't even familiar with their inventory of camera batteries or where they were stored.)

My principal point of dissatisfaction with the GE range was that the quality of stainless steel used for GE's appliance fronts (my wife really likes stainless appliances) is less than ideal - it was sensitive to strong cleaning solutions (you can create rust spots) and was also prone to staining (don't drip anything down the front of the oven when you're, for example, roasting a turkey or removing it from the oven). The drawer at the bottom of the oven and its associated suspension hardware was poorly constructed. But it nonetheless was a good range.

Our current home has its "original appliances" - and the original owner upgraded to a pretty nice Jenn-Air range. It's still going strong (although the former owners did some cosmetic damage to the cooktop) and, I have to say, is the easiest oven I've ever worked with - remarkably even heat, even without turning on the convection fan. (Of course, Jenn-Air comes at a much higher price point than GE.)

But in relation to the larger issue, being a "tough customer", the difference between that guy, you, and a bunch of the people here is that a lot of people seem to expect that they can go to a store, find a knowledgeable salesperson, figure out what they want including a host of custom details and, an hour later, ask the salesperson to beat the best price they can find online. Or walk away, never having had the intention of buying from the store, to submit the customized order to some online vendors for bids.

I've not had much luck with GE Appliances in my home, they all seem to be rather poorly designed compared to what else is on the market. The GE Dishwasher in our new home (2000) lasted 3 years and I replaced it with a Bosch, the cooktop has been hateful for nearly 5 years now with three paid service calls on it and myself tearing it apart several times, and the dual ovens are irritating in that they don't hold temps well. The big, fancy GE refrigerator has a crossover design from the freezer compartment that results in much of the product getting frozen on the refrigerator side. I'm expecting better of the Thermadore unit, its nearly twice the price of a GE.

Yes, that last line about shoppers is the nature of the business. It happens quite a bit, actually - except its usually THREE hours later, not one! It took me a few years to realize I could no longer hold onto a traditional pricing model in the industry and had to steeply discount to stay in the market. That keeps the business cash flow moving forward to be a steep discounter, but its hard on profit. For example, my delivery truck is now 11 years old and in the shop right now for overheating. A new one is $ 45,000 (the one I really want is $ 65K). In years past I could buy one easily - now its 'keep fixing the old truck'. Its also why so many furniture stores have failed over the past few years, the discounts are just too steep to cover reasonable overhead and operating costs unless there is a strong volume in sales. But that model is not going away, so that's the way its going to be for the foreseeable future.

HELP DUANE BUY A NEW TRUCK, BUY MORE FURNITURE! <laughing> This is the one I really like....

http://www.truckandtraileraccess.com...Truck/id:95133

Duane, we have a Bosch dishwasher, too. I can't stand it. It's not that quiet, there are always suds at the bottom after a cycle, and the dishes never dry completely. And, most disturbing of all, it smells horribly. Have had the appliance guys out three times--everything, according to them, is "working perfectly." Which model do you have? I think our Bosch microwave is about to go under, as well. Both appliances are a little over two years old.

I've had no issues at all with our Bosch, and its much quieter than the GE it replaced. I guess mine is about 5 years old. Some of the new ones they had at the appliance store sure were interesting looking through - as interesting as a dishwasher can get.

I have a Bosch dishwasher purchased about 3 months ago. It's very quiet and cleans the dishes perfectly. My only complaint is that my dishes don't seem to fit where the prongs are located.

Jeff Frank
Simplicity Sofas

It must be that I simply chose the wrong model. Your dishwasher doesn't smell rancid when you open it?

Would either of you mind sharing the model # of yours?

Found a little bit more on the issue. But I know our hose is high enough, because the installer pointed out the importance of this when the dishwasher was installed. But it STILL smells!

http://www.contractortalk.com/f11/na...washers-16255/

And, apparently, my problem is rather common:

http://www.epinions.com/reviews/pr-B...5SS_Dishwasher

I think the most probably explanation is that it's a design problem on certain models.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...170519671.html

Bosch announced yesterday that it was closing some of its laundry production lines. “We’re actually planning on investing $50 million more on the dishwasher line. The exact division of the money hasn’t been decided, but definitely (it’s going in) the dishwasher business,” said Marni Hale, the company’s senior corporate communications manager." Perhaps this influx of funding will fix the dishwasher issues raised here.

Great. We just bought a Bosch Vision dryer.

Here's a link to the entire article:
http://www.newbernsj.com/news/bsh-94...n-closing.html

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Great. We just bought a Bosch Vision dryer.

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Originally Posted by organic_smallhome

It must be that I simply chose the wrong model. Your dishwasher doesn't smell rancid when you open it?

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I would check the drain and hose from the interior of the dishwasher all the way to the connection with the garbage disposal, and also the interior of the disposal. It my be that dirty water is not properly draining out or is perhaps washing back into your dishwasher from the disposal.

Boy, have we diverted from the original topic. Oh well, we're friends here and want to help one another. I just found the following article and perhaps the Bosch "problems" are not the machines but something else altogether different. Could this be the culprit? BTW, I have NO affiliation with Bosch.

Another Triumph for the Greens. To go with toilets that don’t flush and light bulbs that don’t light, we now have dishwashers that don’t wash. Jan 31, 2011, By JONATHAN V. LAST

My dishwasher is the Bosch SHE58C—an amazing machine. Stainless-steel front, concealed controls, six cycles to choose from. The manual runs a brisk 63 pages. When we got the Bosch, I read it cover to cover, highlighting and annotating as I went, marking the manufacturer’s preferred method of arranging dishes and the proper way to sit utensils in the dedicated wash basket. I took some pains to relay this information to my wife, though it did not please her as much as I imagined it would.

At first, my Bosch was wonderful. Quiet as a wind’s whisper, the dishes were so clean you could eat off of them. But a few months ago I started noticing problems. A fork would come out with food between the tines; a glass would have bits of grime stuck to the bottom. Surely this was a fluke? Alas, no. My dishwasher no longer shines. What went wrong?

It so happens that in the last six months, a lot of people have suddenly discovered their dishwashers don’t work as well as they used to. The problem, though, isn’t the dishwashers. It’s the soap. Last July, acceding to pressure from environmentalists, America’s dishwasher detergent manufacturers decided to change their formulas. And the new detergents stink.

One of the key ingredients in dish detergent is (or was) phosphorus. Phosphorus is a sociable element, bonding easily and well with others. In detergent, it strips food and grease off dirty dishes and breaks down calcium-based stains. It also keeps the dirt suspended in water, so it can’t reattach to dishes. Best of all, it prevents the washed-away grime and minerals from gumming up the inner-workings of your dishwasher. Traditionally, phosphorus was loaded into dish detergent in the form of phosphates, which are compounds of phosphorus bonded to oxygen. (PO4 if you’re keeping score at home.) Prior to last July, most detergents were around 8 percent elemental phosphorus. Now they’re less than 0.5 percent phosphorus.

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Originally Posted by juliepooch

Another Triumph for the Greens. To go with toilets that don’t flush and light bulbs that don’t light, we now have dishwashers that don’t wash

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I think Consumer Reports had a year-old article about phosphate-free dishwasher detergent and how they generally didn't quite cut the mustard (their pun, not mine :D).

I've read in my dishwasher manual to run a cup of vinegar to clean the dishwasher interior but they make it clear that this is only for occasional use since it is an acid. That or some bleach may help with the smell. The garbage disposal also gets a rancid odor every now and then. At that point I just throw some citrus peelings in and give 'em a good whirl. Smells nice after that.

I switched to enzyme containing detergent long before the phosphorous police patrol struck. So I haven't had any change in the dishwasher having odors in it or detergent not doing it's job. These are the little packets in a tub, each one is sealed in a plastic pouch that dissolves in the wash. CR really likes it for cleaning power, and so do I.

As for the low flow flush problems I've only had one double action needed in the year since I replaced builders junk with the Toto brand toilets. They know how to build 'em to work!