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Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
These are all the pictures I have right now. Armoire is disassembled at the moment.
I want any and all info on this piece. Currently I don't know much & yet to find any name or symbols on it.
Obviously veneer on the front....what species?
Heavy brass key
Hand cut screws on the inside - they at least appear to be hand cut, off center cut on a lot of them and patina.
Has #548 stamped on some of the panels
Two front doors with lock & handle
One large drawer across the bottom
Hand carved flower petals on the top door corners
Three toe claw feet on the front
Around 7' tall I think
Hear rumblings from an unreliable source that is was from Germany.
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/z...psim6ozrsb.jpg
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Hi, stubadub.
Looks to be a beautiful piece. You mentioned that it is currently disassembled. Do you know how it assembles? Is it a breakdown with pegs/wedges, or does it completely assemble using screws?
TXCajun
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Yes I know how, I've put it together a few times. All breakdown with pegs and screws.
7-8 pieces iirc.
I can get more pix just don't have it all pulled out yet and assembled.
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stubadub
Yes I know how, I've put it together a few times. All breakdown with pegs and screws.
7-8 pieces iirc.
I can get more pix just don't have it all pulled out yet and assembled.
stubadub,
If some of the panels assemble with screws, it's not a full breakdown. A full breakdown assembles only with pegs and wedges, no screws. Yours sounds like a combination, which certainly could put it in the pre-1850's time period.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest some of that wood is walnut. What are your thoughts?
Please, do post more photos. It looks to be a wonderful piece.
TXCajun
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Was thinking something exotic, Turkish walnut?
Just looked at some panels, they have large pegs almost as thick as my pinky finger. It's been years but I thought it had just a few screws when put together with the majority just slipping into place.
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stubadub
Was thinking something exotic, Turkish walnut?
Just looked at some panels, they have large pegs almost as thick as my pinky finger. It's been years but I thought it had just a few screws when put together with the majority just slipping into place.
"...Turkish walnut?" Interesting. Hopefully, a woods in-the-know forum member will post a reply.
How is the base constructed? Does it have a base drawer? If so, what's the drawer joinery? When you can, post those photos, please.
TXCajun
Edit: Oops. I just noticed you did mention it has a drawer. I apologize for missing that detail.
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
OK starting pulling all the pieces out, don't have it together but here's some more shots.
Joinery is hand cut dovetail. Pegs have some spirals in them. There are some wedges in the corners.
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/z...psywblqvf0.jpg
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Looking at the chunk missing on the spiral design the wood looks to be walnut.
Still want verification and still want to know about the veneer.
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/z...psbh4jcgch.jpg
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Can't find any numbers or markings on the lock, handles or anywhere except the #548
This is the large drawer on the bottom.
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/z...psyqurmzpn.jpg
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Wood looks like walnut here too. The big question is what kind, what region.
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/z...pszxgyvyxb.jpg
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
stubadub,
I do believe that drawer dovetail is machine-cut. Also, I am inclined to think the piece was made around the 1890's. Further, I am starting to think it is an American piece. All of those statements are simply my opinions based on my own experience with antiques. I am no expert. I am still hoping a forum member with better knowledge will step up and give better direction!
The feet are interesting and it seems like they might provide some additional clues. The drawer is gorgeous! I imagine the assembled piece is quite stunning.
If you do learn anything more, I hope you'll update, here.
TXCajun
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stubadub
Is there a high-end antiques dealer in your area? Not, some little corner "antique shop," but like a major league antiques dealer known for carrying mainly pre-20th century European pieces? If so, I'd contact them with your questions & photos to see if they can provide some answers. If they can't themselves, they usually know several other dealers located all over the place who might be THE expert on pieces like this.
If it's not marked anywhere by the maker(not even on the side of a drawer, or the back of one?) I'm thinking it could've possibly been a privately commissioned piece. Many were in the 19th century, with the only identifier being a model series number &/or other similar markings usually on areas of the frame hidden from normal view.
When & where did you purchase it & was the seller able to provide you with any background on the piece?
Andrea :)
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TXCajun
stubadub,
I do believe that drawer dovetail is machine-cut.
Further, I am starting to think it is an American piece. All of those statements are simply my opinions based on my own experience with antiques. I am no expert. I am still hoping a forum member with better knowledge will step up and give better direction!
TXCajun
Hey Thanks I'll take whatever info I can get right now. I will disagree with you on the dovetails though, they seem to be slightly different sizes and some tool marks left. I've hand cut before but won't go as far as saying I'm an expert, I could very well be wrong.
Also it could just be a factory variation or something but the feet and petals don't seem to be identical.
Earlier you had asked about the screws/dowels and the wedges too. This has dowels and wedges and off-center cut screws on the backside of the door panels which would also point to pre-1850's.
All that said I could still be offtrack and it could just be a very nice knockoff or not as old.
I will update this thread until I get to the bottom of it. I can't find anything online that even closely resembles it yet.
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asomer
Is there a high-end antiques dealer in your area? Not, some little corner "antique shop," but like a major league antiques dealer known for carrying mainly pre-20th century European pieces? If so, I'd contact them with your questions & photos to see if they can provide some answers. If they can't themselves, they usually know several other dealers located all over the place who might be THE expert on pieces like this.
If it's not marked anywhere by the maker(not even on the side of a drawer, or the back of one?) I'm thinking it could've possibly been a privately commissioned piece. Many were in the 19th century, with the only identifier being a model series number &/or other similar markings usually on areas of the frame hidden from normal view.
When & where did you purchase it & was the seller able to provide you with any background on the piece?
Andrea :)
Yes that was one thing I was going to do, have a professional look at it. I'm in Central KY so we have access to that pretty easy I was just trying to get some kind of info on it while I pulled it out and put together.
I keep checking area's, I know a little but can't find anything but #548 so far.
As far as history goes it comes from my great grandmother but that's about all that's known. Anyone that could have more info is long gone at this point.
-thx!
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stubadub
Hey Thanks I'll take whatever info I can get right now. I will disagree with you on the dovetails though, they seem to be slightly different sizes and some tool marks left. I've hand cut before but won't go as far as saying I'm an expert, I could very well be wrong.
Also it could just be a factory variation or something but the feet and petals don't seem to be identical.
Earlier you had asked about the screws/dowels and the wedges too. This has dowels and wedges and off-center cut screws on the backside of the door panels which would also point to pre-1850's.
All that said I could still be offtrack and it could just be a very nice knockoff or not as old.
I will update this thread until I get to the bottom of it. I can't find anything online that even closely resembles it yet.
stubadub,
That would be fabulous if you're correct about the dovetails! I will defer to your judgement because I assure you that I have never made a single piece of furniture, much less hand-cut dovetails. I'm impressed that you've done that.
And, it's very promising that the carvings have discernible variations. Now that you've confirmed there are wedges, I am swinging back to the piece coming from around the 1850's. I have come across only two for-real-deal breakdowns in my three decades of antiquing. And, one has been in a friend's family from the get-go. Yours is a much more spectacular looking piece and I bet it's a bit older, as well.
Please, don't discount the "little corner" "antique shop". Some of those people are true gems, full of knowledge, and love to help just because they truly love what they do. As a matter of fact, one of the most knowledgeable people I have ever met worked out of what looked to be by all outward appearances a decrepit, bat-filled barn. Believe me when I tell you that if you met him on the street, you would think he was really a hobo. You'd be wrong. He had some very, very fine pieces in that barn. It was like stepping into another world. Of course, if you're looking to spend some money on an appraisal, well, then, yes, you'll likely be visiting more of the froo-froo type.
How wonderful that you have such a fine family piece. That is something special!
TXCajun
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
I'll try and get a pic up tonight of the inside wedge for verification.
I know very little about old armories, pretty interesting you've only seen a few breakdowns. Can't wait to find out what this is.
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Photos are not all that extensive, but here's my read on this piece.
European origin.
Production furniture with some hand-tooling on the carvings
Dovetails are jig cut
Wood is machine sanded.
Nice crotch veneer.
Best guess: late 1800's to early 1900's.
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Yes I realize that, sorry not trying to tease anyone. I've gotten it all out of storage now but need to wipe down and put together which should be tomorrow.
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/z...psfpvqg8xs.jpg
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Left & Right foot if anyone wants to inspect the feet in detail, could very well be factory carved in specific spots.
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/z...psxn6zfdyq.jpg
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/z...psffyjigmy.jpg
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drcollie
Photos are not all that extensive, but here's my read on this piece.
European origin.
Production furniture with some hand-tooling on the carvings
Dovetails are jig cut
Wood is machine sanded.
Nice crotch veneer.
Best guess: late 1800's to early 1900's.
What do you think about the veneer species? Walnut for sure?
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Not to get off topic but this was the first piece I made by hand. Several flaws on top but I was pretty pleased overall.
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/z...psp4rcohyn.jpg
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/z...psiwjgo8xk.jpg
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
stubadub,
Ah, I see where we've mixed up our communication. The photo you posted seems to show some corner bracing. When I'm speaking of a breakdown piece with wedges, I mean there are actual loose wedges that must be hand-placed, or driven, in the correct locations when assembling the piece. Then, when one desires to disassemble the piece, those same wedges must be individually removed. There are no screws in a complete breakdown piece. There are pieces that are sort of hybrids. They have a few screws. It's the complete breakdown pieces with wedges and pegs that I have found to be scarce. I have seen many hybrids. Does that make sense?
Wow! Your first piece with that dovetail work is pretty cool. It's terrific that you can do that. I truly admire people who want to learn how to create beautiful furniture using the old ways. It must require a lot of patience.
TXCajun
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Ahh ok gotcha on the wedges. Always looking to learn. Hopefully I'll have this together this afternoon.
Thanks for the comments, I tend to enjoy tedious work. I've made tables, chairs, dressers, beds, flooring etc etc out of wood.
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TXCajun
stubadub,
That would be fabulous if you're correct about the dovetails! I will defer to your judgement because I assure you that I have never made a single piece of furniture, much less hand-cut dovetails. I'm impressed that you've done that.
And, it's very promising that the carvings have discernible variations. Now that you've confirmed there are wedges, I am swinging back to the piece coming from around the 1850's. I have come across only two for-real-deal breakdowns in my three decades of antiquing. And, one has been in a friend's family from the get-go. Yours is a much more spectacular looking piece and I bet it's a bit older, as well.
Please, don't discount the "little corner" "antique shop". Some of those people are true gems, full of knowledge, and love to help just because they truly love what they do. As a matter of fact, one of the most knowledgeable people I have ever met worked out of what looked to be by all outward appearances a decrepit, bat-filled barn. Believe me when I tell you that if you met him on the street, you would think he was really a hobo. You'd be wrong. He had some very, very fine pieces in that barn. It was like stepping into another world. Of course, if you're looking to spend some money on an appraisal, well, then, yes, you'll likely be visiting more of the froo-froo type.
How wonderful that you have such a fine family piece. That is something special!
TXCajun
TXCajun,
You're absolutely right about the little, corner "antique store" owners sometimes being much more knowledgeable than the downtown, froo-froo dealer.
I hope I wasn't suggesting completely disregarding the little shop? What I was trying to say was: that if stubadub is wanting an answer immediately, or looking to quickly veliminate some of the many guesses that have been thrown out there, a European & fine antiques dealer or appraisal service would be my 1st choice. If stubadub gets nowhere closer on identifying the maker & era of the piece that route, then by all means, yes go to whomever & wherever, including the shop around the corner. Their corner antique shop owner just may be THE expert on pieces exactly line this the froo-froo dealer was going to suggest!!
Stubadub,
I don't know if you're wanting to go THIS far in your investigation, but what about a wood analysis at your local community college's science dept? I'd think they'd prob be able to do it free of charge. Just bring in a tiny chipped sample for them to place under the microscope or run an itsy bitsy, little chemical test on?
As interesting as this all is...I'd think a carbon 14 dating on the wood, or running more serious chemical analysis on the wood to determine its species, age & origin might be cost prohibitive :(
Stubadub, please do keep us updated on the piece's history as you discover it. It's pretty fascinating having almost nothing to go off of & building it up from there, little by little. It's like CSI Antiques!! haha
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
:D well to be honest we do take items to the dean of forestry at the University of Kentucky quite often to verify different species. Great suggestions about everything though! I've not taken it there yet, I was thinking an expert online and also in person would be the route at first since it was a furniture piece. But yea if I don't get a accurate answer on the veneer, main structure and a couple boards on the inside that are something else that's where I'm heading.
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
This just had the dust wiped off and hasn't been properly cleaned yet.
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/z...psldrpimvh.jpg
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
For what it's worth there are NO screws to actually put the breakdown together. It puzzles together very simply with dowels and one tongue and groove type rail for the back panels.
Top slides on. Now there are some flat head screws holding a few things together but those wouldn't normally come out unless a repair was in order. There are also some small nails here and there.
If the nails and original screws are Not hand cut then I would guess it was done on purpose to make them look older than they really are.
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Wow, all put together it's beautiful!! I'm not much of a fan of claw feet, even the Chippendale ball & claw feet...I'd rather a decorative bun foot on this piece. Lol but, that's just my opinion & I'm sure others out there will disagree.
Minus the "creepy talon" claw feet(LOL,) it's a gorgeous veneer & finish. I'm REALLY intrigued now!!
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Oh, & it's massive!! What are the dimensions fully assembled?
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
7' tall
2' deep
4.8' wide
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
stubadub,
OH...MY...GOODNESS! Do you think those inside, back panels are birdseye maple?! I adore that wood. We're in the middle of a move, so I'm on my phone and can't really be sure of what I'm seeing. Please, oh please, let that be birdseye!
And, I am taking great satsifaction in seeing that piece fully assembled. My guess is confirmed. You have an absolutely stunning piece of family history.
I can't wait to see those photos on my laptop. Gosh dang, I loathe moving.
TXCajun
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
That was my first impression, birds eye. I need to inspect closer and clean it up better to be sure. Glad your enjoying the progress.....hopefully someone that specializes in armoires sees this and chimes in.
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
A local antiques guy wasn't able to answer a lot of my questions but he does think the veneer is Flame Mahogany from a Burl section.
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Re: Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stubadub
A local antiques guy wasn't able to answer a lot of my questions but he does think the veneer is Flame Mahogany from a Burl section.
stubadub,
That is a strong possibility. My stepdad was a better than fair furniture maker. Though, not quite at the level of the guys Duane knows. He's rather elderly, now, but I'll grab some of your photos, email them his way, and hope he can still see well enough to offer his opinion. Is it ok with you that I grab your photos for that?
TXCajun