Help chosing a sofa?

Hello Duane,

We posted this question previously on a Sunday, but we did not hear back from you, so we thought that you might have missed it. We know you must be very busy and frankly we cannot believe that you take the time to help everyone out the way you do. THANKS!!

Also, we have now watched the video via the H&M link that you provided...we are now very impressed with the H&M build quality....is Bradington Young build quality similar??

We are looking at a H&M Journal sofa #1828 in Tuscany Harness, priced at $2795.00 (which after watching the video we assume is a grade 3 leather?)and a Bradington Young Barcelo Sofa #411-95 priced at $1699.00, both at local furniture stores in South Carolina. We will use the sofa every day. We would appreciate a quote from your store delivered to 29625.

My weight is about 400lbs and therefore I am concerned with both comfort and durability under my weight.

I sat on each for about five minutes in the store, and my initial impression is to purchase the H&M which seemed more supportive, but as I do not really know how the construction of the two brands compare, I need your input.

What are your recommendations? Is there another manufacturer or model I should be considering? Thanks for any advice you can give me!!

One more question...the leather on the H&M is Tuscany Harness. It is very shinny and smooth, so I assumed it has a protection of some kind on it, yet when I looked the leather color up on the H&M web site it says "unprotected". This leads me to believe that I do not understand what is meant by the term "protected" in relation to leather...can you help me??

DCHANDLER

Whoops! Sorry, I did miss it. Sometimes its difficult to find posts on this v. bulletin software if they get missed. Wish there was a bookmark feature to come back to them!

I reply to all I read, so any I miss, just PM me (Private Message) as that stays in the PM box and doesn't get lost.

Bradington Young is similar build quality to H&M. I have both in my home for personal use, and my oldest H&M piece is 1987, my oldest B-Y piece is 1993. Both are still in good shape and usable. The main difference (to my eye) is that B-Y is more production grade, vs H&M is really hand-crafted, and the details are evident, even to an untrained eye. Like I'm fond of saying, H&M knows the 'art of upholstery' whereas B-Y is more cost-focused.

At 400 lb, you want the Hancock and Moore. The reason being, we'll get it custom made for your weight. That means Jimmy Moore will personally see that the frame is reinforced, and he'll select higher spring rates, plus stiffer cushions for you. All at no charge. You're not going to get that with a B-Y. I've done this several times to date, and it works well.

Journal is a great sofa, built for comfort. Not many I would recommend over that one, I think you have one of the better frames for comfort.

Tuscany is a Grade 2 leather, not 3. Its an unprotected 'pull-up' leather (becomes lighter where its pulled tight, darker where its slack) with a serviceability of 3 rating. Its a full top grain grade A Steer hide, and its not truly 'unprotected' in the purest sense as it has a teflon top coat on the hide. It may soak up some oily stains, but they would have to be severe in most cases. Also some acid-based liquids (like cider vinegar). In my experience, few people bring those kind of things to the sofas, and I have that class leather in my own home with no ill effects. Your 'unprotected' leathers do NOT like direct sunlight however, and thats more of a concern than staining in most instances. The trade off is a nicer leather, more luxurious and better looking than a finished leather. Its really all about your lifestyle and tolerance for that sore of thing (fading/staining possibilities).

My price on that sofa in that leather is $ 3,199 plus appx. $145 via Home Delivery Service. Can't match that $ 2,795 price, that may have been an older market special for them to sell it at that price, it's getting pretty close to dealer cost on the current price list. You have to decide if you want one 'beefed-up' for you or want to change a standard model. I'm concerned about spring and frame sag as the piece ages with the info you gave me.

Thanks for the help Duane!

Our local dealer was able to order that H&M sofa with the upgrades that you mentioned (frame, spring and cushion) for the same price, $2795.00 which included delivery to our house, which is 35 miles away. Of course we had to pay tax. They said that the Tuscany Harness leather was married...which I did not know until after my wife had ordered the sofa. From reading posts in your forum that means that the leather was cut somewhere else then stiched in NC, correct?? I do not want China tanned leather, but from what I gathered only the Document leathers are possibly from China, correct?

We APPRECIATE your help!! Good people like you who sincerely want to help the consumer, sale or no sale, is what this country was built on. We are going to order a couple of recliners later in the year and I will check with you on your price for those.

D Chandler

My pleasure!

Your selling dealer is in for a rude awakening I'm afraid. The # 1828 sofa was dropped from the Town and Country program end of 2008, and they're working off an old price sheet. Its not even on for 2009 nor is there a married cover program on that piece. They'll figure it out when they get the H&M Acknowledgment and discover they have to pay quite a bit more than they planned.

* They may contact you to look for more money on the deal and if so, you'll know why. My guess is they will say they made a mistake and ask for another $ 300 - $ 400 from you...but who knows? They may be too embarrassed to call.

*Or they may tell you they cannot order the extra built one at that price and offer you their older model on the floor which they did most certainly buy on last year's promotional T&C deal.

* They might even wait 6 weeks and then deliver you that floor model as your 'custom'! I'd hate to see them do that last one, because I think you'll need/want the stiffer springs of a custom made one. But some dealers will do that.

The only H&M leathers coming out of China are Document and Cavalier. I'm not sure of country of origin on Tuscany, but that will be cut and sewn in Hickory NC in any case because its not a program sofa/hide at this point.

When you get ready for some motion chairs, may I suggest tilt-backs instead of recliners? The reason being is that by their design, tilt backs have a much stronger frame with only the back in motion. A recliner is a series of panels all basically held together with the mechanism (and two wood cross pieces at the bottom). Because of the weight you would put on these pieces, I would expect the tilt backs to give you a much longer service duty life and they're more comfortable as well. Downside is you have to buy an ottoman with them to make them work.

Good luck, let me know how the sofa works out!

I am dealing with a local shop to order a Hancock & Moore sofa (Model 9844) in a class 2 leather (cavalier mocha). I'm considering 3 pieces (sofa, chair 1/2, ottoman 1/2). The price for the sofa is quoted as $4115, the chair at $3201, and ottoman at $1204. Delivery is $45 to my home in Michigan. Now, here's my question. My dealer told me H&M would use L-brackets for reinforcement at no charge, but there is an upcharge for the reinforced springs and stiffer cushions ($125 sofa, $65 chair).

Since you seem to have negotiated this in the past with H&M, is this something new with H&M, or is my dealer trying to up his profits on the group?

I really appreciate the forum. You have been extremely helpful to this first time high end furniture buyer! Thanks!

:eek: I'm sure Duane will comment on this but you are being quote an EXTREMELY high price on the #9844 City Sofa in a Cavalier leather. Please get that quoted from some other dealers!

That's what I'm getting. After seeing many prices in these threads I'm wondering the same thing. I don't know if it's just Michigan given the state of the economy here and struggling furniture owners. I got another dealer in MI (the only two I could find) to quote the same group. Their prices were: sofa -$4980, chair 1/2- $3872, otto 1/2-$1457, $69 delivery in MI. She also wrote down the "retail price"- sofa-$6995, chair 1/2- $5435, otto 1/2-$2045 to show me how much I was saving.

Every dealer sets their own prices, and decides what they need to make on a sale to make a living. Set them too high and customers won't buy (or will shop around), set them too low and they go out of business for lack of being able to make a profit.

Then there is the service aspect of it all. Some dealers are willing to work hard for you, others not so much. Is that worth anything? To some, yes - others no. You have to decide for yourself based on the character and attitude of the store's personnel - its an individual choice.

Example: I had an inquiry on (6) pieces of H&M yesterday from a potential customer. My initial quote was slightly higher than a price he was able to get from a Carolina store. He asked would I match it - I said I would, and save him about $ 50 on freight as well as my shipper charged less that the other guy's. That made me the low bid for his order (overall). He came back a few hours later and said if I'd take another $ 350 off I could get the business. I declined and wished him good luck....at a certain point there is no margin left to run a business and I intend to still be here next year and the year after that. Plus I really find it a bit offensive when I'm asked to meet a price, agree to it, then have another round of cheapening requests (as if that's all I have to do all day is play pricing games!). Grrrrrrr......don't waste my time, I'm not your guy if your idea of a getting a good deal is playing two dealers off against one another.

My point is I will rarely take any dealer to task for the prices they wish to sell at, because each has to make a living and pay the overhead - and in the end its a guessing game if you can survive in a low-price, low-margin business. I have a low-margin model though I'll tell you that if you want to spend the time and effort to squeeze out a few more nickels you can find a dealer or two who will be even lower. Will they still be there next year if you have a problem with your piece? Will they go to bat for you if you have a problem or need some help? Maybe...maybe not!

Now, onto those pieces....I quote those as follows (better to use the model numbers so there is no confusion as the frame quoted):

# 9844 in Grade 2: $ 3,318
# 9830 in Grade 2: $ 2,580
# 9829 in Grade 2: $ 971

Shipping via Home Delivery Service would be appx. $ 388 for the group and there is no sales tax collected.

FYI, Hancock and Moore does not charge extra for "L" brackets or heavier springs, or firmer or fuller standard cushions. Jack Glasheen and Jimmy Moore don't believe in nickel and diming their customers for small extras to make the pieces right for them.

There are upcharges for Ultra Down cushions, but they're softer, not firmer.

Duane--
I appreciate the comments. One question about your quote. Is the sofa currently being made under the married material from China?

Yes, Cavalier and Document are the two only hides from H&M that come from tanneries in China, and they are cut and sewn in China as well for the Married Cover Program. For Finished leathers, the fit and quality is excellent. I cannot tell the difference between Cavalier/Document cut and sewn in China, or if done from hides in North Carolina, and my suppliers tell me I have a critical eye.

All other hides are from South America, Italy, USA, Canada, Germany, Switzerland, and New Zealand. A few of the Italian tanneries have satellite operations in China, so for example Kipling leather (one of my favorites) may come from their Italian tannery or a batch may come out of the China satellite operation...it varies.