Antique Armoire - Pre 1850's? - Looking for Info

[stubadub]

Wow a lot of comments since I checked in! Love the questions and suggestions back and forth. I'm beyond curious by nature so I'm no where close to giving up on this piece. Waiting on an email back from a company that should have some knowledge on this........hoping anyway.

The only other info I know about this is that my grandparents went to lots of auctions, mostly in OH I hear and brought everything back to KY. That said I don't even really know when this "showed" up in the family but an educated guess would be from an estate auction in the 90's which is pretty much another dead end.

As far as the dovetails go I guess they could be jig cut but again they are not uniform at all if you look at my picture and also have tool marks.

Veneer does look to be a crotch mahogany and I do know that at least the base is walnut from the large chunk missing. I do lots of woodworking myself but know little about old furniture pieces and their origins.

[stubadub]

This is one of the closest matching pieces I've seen online. No bottom drawer and this probably does Nothing to figure mine out but they say its a American Late Classical circa 1830's.


http://www.prices4antiques.com/Furni...-D9957254.html

[TXCajun]

This is one of the closest matching pieces I've seen online. No bottom drawer and this probably does Nothing to figure mine out but they say its a American Late Classical circa 1830's.


http://www.prices4antiques.com/Furni...-D9957254.html

stubadub,

Good job! As per the recent back-and-forth discussion, you can easily see how the piece you found has some American, some European elements. If the seller of that piece is claiming 1830's, the dovetails really should be hand-cut, as the machine-cut American innovation did not come about until somewhere around the 1890's, I believe. (I hope my memory serves and I'm not misleading you.) However, the seller is also claiming American. This is totally plausible considering the other elements...paw foot, other design, woods. But, one must be cautious because none of those elements eliminates a European origin. Isn't the whole thing crazy-making fun?! Would you consider contacting that seller to ask how he/she made the American origin determination? You might get some hand-wavy vague answer or, more hopefully, something with specifics.

Also, the following link will take you to the site of an antiques dealer offering several American pieces, again, having some of the same elements as your piece. (Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with the seller. I'm simply including it to help with our mystery piece!)

http://www.blackthornantiques.com/fu...wardrobes.html

As an aside, your piece is not only beautiful, but will be fabulous in just about any room in just about any type of interior. Just imagine it in a minimalist environment, or an industrial loft! It would be the star. Oh, now I'm drooling.

TXCajun

[Asomer]

I told you guys: this is like CSI Antiques!! Lol

[Asomer]

stubadub,

Good job! As per the recent back-and-forth discussion, you can easily see how the piece you found has some American, some European elements. If the seller of that piece is claiming 1830's, the dovetails really should be hand-cut, as the machine-cut American innovation did not come about until somewhere around the 1890's, I believe. (I hope my memory serves and I'm not misleading you.) However, the seller is also claiming American. This is totally plausible considering the other elements...paw foot, other design, woods. But, one must be cautious because none of those elements eliminates a European origin. Isn't the whole thing crazy-making fun?! Would you consider contacting that seller to ask how he/she made the American origin determination? You might get some hand-wavy vague answer or, more hopefully, something with specifics.

Also, the following link will take you to the site of an antiques dealer offering several American pieces, again, having some of the same elements as your piece. (Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with the seller. I'm simply including it to help with our mystery piece!)

http://www.blackthornantiques.com/fu...wardrobes.html

As an aside, your piece is not only beautiful, but will be fabulous in just about any room in just about any type of interior. Just imagine it in a minimalist environment, or an industrial loft! It would be the star. Oh, now I'm drooling.

TXCajun

Both of those "Knock Down Missouri Wardrobes" look near identical to Stubadub's piece's interior: inc the open area on the right with the hanger hooks & 3 drawers on the left. They're listed as walnut too, which is what y'all are leaning towards on this piece, correct?

TXCajun & Duane, I'm curious: what's the tale tell sign of machine/jig cut dovetails? I look at dovetails & LOL; I just see dovetails. You guys see machine cut or hand cut: how?

I'd like to be able to discern myself, in the future whether or not I'm seeing hand cut dovetails or machine cut. I also go antiquing with my mom quite a bit & would like the knowledge of knowing exactly what we should be looking for.

She's a weekly regular at The Antique Gallery: a huge, multi-dealer warehouse north of Houston, in Spring. And of course, every year we go to Round Rock...she's constantly buying great looking pieces to replace great looking pieces she already has at home(giving the cast off antiques to my sister & I.) I'd like to be able to advise her on these pieces' build quality, as well as know for myself since I've got a few of her purchases in my own home. Lol, they're not really my style but because they're solid wood & heavy, I'm hoping they're well made pieces worth hanging onto.

Lol, as most antiquers know, I think it's the hunt of finding THAT one piece & getting a "great" deal on it that drives her. She just loves being at The Antique Gallery on delivery day, when the new stuff comes in & it's every man for himself after that! Lol

[drcollie]

You can tell a lot about dovetails, even to some degree the origin of the piece.

Jig cut dovetails are very uniform across the sides of the piece, and usually are never as tight as a handcut dovetail. You can see more filler in them and the pins are equidistant from one another. Why is this important? Because a jig cut tells you it was made in a factory, or quasi-production method, and the handcut indicates a Benchmade piece of furniture that was done by one person start to finish. It affects the valuation and the price you pay for a piece. For example, if someone brings a chest of drawers into my store and says its from 1790 and was handmade in Colonial America and is a genuine period piece, I can tell by the dovetails if its English or American and if jig cut then I know that they are either unknowledgable or untruthful. Its one of the tools in the toolbox you use when valuing a piece.

Here's a typical jig cut dovetail off a J.L. Treharn piece I have in the store. Notice the pins are all the same size and equidistant from one another? Also, notice they don't fit exactly at the top and the bottom, and you can see a little airspace on some of the pins. This is very typical of a jig or machine cut dovetail.



Now here's a hand-cut dovetail from John Buchanan, notice the scribe marks? All handcut dovetails will have scribe marks (Some companies such as Eldred Wheeler put in fake scribe marks on their jig cuts), and see how the pins are fat and big? And how they line up with the drawer side top and bottom? And how the pins are tighter? Classic American handcut dovetail. 200 years from now someone in the know will say 'that piece was handmade'.



Here's a photo of a classic handcut English style dovetail, see how the pins are much thinner?



Why does it matter if its English or American? Simple...Period American Furniture has more value to it that the same era piece coming from England. There were lots of furnituremakers in England, few in the early days of the USA. A Chippendale Chest from 1790 that was made in Boston is worth more than the same era piece coming out of London. So knowing your styles of dovetails is just one more way to validate a claim on a piece.

Addendum: Know why wardrobes (armoires) were made to knock-down? As were many dining tables? So you could move them cross country easily. There were no big trucks and trailers until about 80 years ago, everything went by wagon. To have a piece that could come apart for moving was a big deal.

[Asomer]

Thank you for the explanation & pictures. I googled my question & saw similar articles stating the same.

What exactly is a "scribe" mark? Could you possibly highlight in a photo what it is & its purpose?

What about French dovetails? My mother is mostly on the hunt for repros of French 18th century pieces(Louis XV, Louis XVI & some Louis Philippe styled pieces.) True pre-revolution French antiques go into the hundreds of thousands, so she's buying pieces made after that time that capture that look(hand carving, detailed marquetery & gilding, etc.) Some she's been told are from France, but I'm skeptical unless it was procured from an estate sale of someone who bought the pieces in France & shipped them back here.

Thanks again

[Asomer]

Oh, & she's not into the chalk paint/Shabby Chic look that a lot of these French pieces were & still are being redone in. She likes them in their natural finish & has had several of the larger, more substantial purchases refinished to really bring back their original state.

She's not a true antiques collector, she just prefers the older, well made furniture to newer, mass produced furniture & her style is that very ornate Louis XV/Louis XVI style.

[TXCajun]

Duane,

You da' man! I love the way you just rattle off that information, including photos. The best part is that you're succinct. I, on the other hand, am: 1) too lazy, or, 2) once I do get started, too verbose.

Asomer,

Is the Antique Gallery in the Houston area one of those galleries that brings in shipments of European antiques? Some pretty decent finds can be had at places that do that. Also, when you wrote Round Rock, did you mean Round Top? I've lived in the Texas hill country for nearly three decades and Round Rock has never had any big draw for antiquing or junking. It's now mainly just an overgrown suburb, sadly. I bet you meant Round Top. Now, that is THE event! I used to go to Round Top when it was really nothing more than a few vendors setting up on the side of the road or in somebody's pasture. It has turned into quite the carnival atmosphere. It is ginormous and goes for miles. Back in the beginning, one definitely could find some spectacular deals. Now, the vendors know the big-deal, New York designer, muckity-mucks are in attendance and the prices have gone through the roof. Through...the...roof. But, it is fun to get out there and see what's what.

TXCajun

[stubadub]

Yes, drcollie is definitely on point about the dovetails.

If I don't get a reply this weekend from the people I emailed I'll give them a call.